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Thread: Twins Dislike Platoons

  1. #21
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    To go slightly off topic, I think it's way past time for MLB to expand the active roster. With 5 man rotations, reliever specialists and pitch counts the norm, 25 man rosters are too small.
    Perhaps. I think they should just keep it at a +1 for 26 players on the roster.

  2. #22
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    How much of a baseball person is Dave St. Peter? Does he really understand the game, or is he basically just a business stratagy guy? Because if he has the level of understanding that the average poster on this site has, he cannot seriously be happy to hear his GM and manager spew this nonsense.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Perhaps. I think they should just keep it at a +1 for 26 players on the roster.
    I'm not sure. I don't think I could stomach 4 catchers.

  4. #24
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    How much of a baseball person is Dave St. Peter? Does he really understand the game, or is he basically just a business stratagy guy? Because if he has the level of understanding that the average poster on this site has, he cannot seriously be happy to hear his GM and manager spew this nonsense.
    I mentioned this in another thread and Shane is here as well....but if these statements boil down to nothing more than stating the obvious, then you are absolutely correct. These statements are horrifically confusing, poorly worded, full of double talk, hard not to read pessimistic ally, and they make the team sound incompetent.

  5. #25
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    To go slightly off topic, I think it's way past time for MLB to expand the active roster. With 5 man rotations, reliever specialists and pitch counts the norm, 25 man rosters are too small.
    I've wondered for some time whether they should go to a system similar to the NHL and the lower minor leagues. Maybe have 30-man rosters, but only 25 can be dressed and play in any particular game.

    That would make it easier to put somebody on the sideline for a few days to handle a niggling injury without having to do the "should we or shouldn't we DL him" thing. It also gives you more bench and reliever spots for any particular game as resting starters would not be taking a uniformed spot that day. The same thing could apply in September after callups - 40 players on roster, but only 25 dressed for any particular game.

  6. #26
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    How much of a baseball person is Dave St. Peter? Does he really understand the game, or is he basically just a business stratagy guy? Because if he has the level of understanding that the average poster on this site has, he cannot seriously be happy to hear his GM and manager spew this nonsense.
    He's been with the Twins since 1990 (when he joined the organization as an intern) so he has 23 years of baseball with the team.

    According to his Linked in profile, before he was Twins Prez, he was:

    • Sr. Vice President, Business Affairs at Minnesota Twins
    • Vice President, Corporate Communications at Minnesota Twins
    • Director, Corporate Communications at Minnesota Twins


    • Manager, Corporate Communications at Minnesota Twins
    • Manager, Twins Pro Shop at Minnesota Twins




    Given his marketing/communications background, nonsense statements and spin, spin, spin would be nothing new to him.

  7. #27
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    It would seem if Terry Ryan wouldn't want to employ it - the manager for 2014 and beyond (whether Gardenhire or a new 'hire') would also have a similar philosophy.

    To Ryan's point, 'who would you platoon?' has some merit. I'm not sure we really have that serviceable of players on offense to do it. And to maybe win another 5-10 games this year - would that make the difference? Maybe they want a high pick this year as if Draft experts are right, being in the top 5 picks will yield a very good prospect in 2014.

    It could work for 2-3 roster spots on the team, often a 3rd/4th OF scenario, as well as a 3rd middle IF who could put in work at 2B/SS/3B.

    Someone mentioned 1991. We did sorta did it at 3B in 1991 with Scott Leuis (R) and Mike Pagliarulo. We definitely did it with Pagliarulo as his ABs are very skewed to facing RHP. Leuis is about even, but was defeinitely better vs. LHP.

    Leuis - 71 AB .254 AVG vs RHP, 128 AB .305 AVG vs LHP
    Pagliarulo - 349 AB .284 AVG vs RHP, 16 AB .188 AVG vs LHP

    Randy Bush (163 AB .302 vs RHP, 2 AB .000 AVG vs LHP) was a 4th OF/DH and he could have been considered "platoon" to an extent - as he faced pretty much only RHP, however it didn't seem he really had a platoon mate. More of just a situational 4th OF.

    In 1991, the Minnesota Twins hit .280 as a team that year. The difference was we had 6 full-time hitters who hit .277 or higher that year (Brian Harper, Kent HrBek, Check Knoblauch, Shane Mack, Kirby Puckett, Chili Davis), including 3 hitters over .310 (Harper, Mack, & Puckett). A lineup that resembles something more similar to the St. Louis Cardinals this year.

    The 2013 Twins don't have a regular, other than Mauer, hitting over .259 (Morneau - no longer with the team). Dozier is next at .249. Arcia only has 356 AB, or I would have said him, even so, he's only hitting .256.

    We'd have to do 9 platoons, or 18 players + Mauer to get a similar team average as we did in 1991. But then again...could we even get close to that?

    Let's see what we have to work with...

    Florimon can't hit anybody (.235 vs RHP, .188 vs LHP).
    Plouffe hit better vs LHP, however, only 2 HR in 107 AB (.234 vs RHP, .299 vs LHP).
    Willingham couldn't hit a barn, lefty or righty (.210 vs RHP, .215 vs LHP).
    Hicks couldn't hit anything either (.203 vs RHP, .186 vs LHP).
    Parmalee isn't much better than any of these guys (.250 vs RHP, .172 vs LHP).
    Thomas couldn't hit any better than Florimon (.228 vs RHP, .175 vs LHP).
    Escobar was about even (.238 vs RHP, .231 vs LHP).
    Colabello, well, he's consistent against either hand (.193 vs RHP, .186 vs LHP).

    So again...

    Ryan, "On this club, who would you want to platoon?"
    Last edited by twinsfan34; 09-26-2013 at 09:11 AM.

  8. #28
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    Lacking the numbers to platoon at several positions, I've thought that using positional flexibility and switch hitters to fill three spots with four players would be ideal. Escobar filling in for Plouffe, Florimon (vs LH starters) and occasionally Dozier (big platoon split) would make sense. Likewise in the outfield, an outfield where one switch hitter replaces two or all three of the regulars depending on the handedness of the pitcher would allow the hitters to be placed in situations that give them a good chance to succeed.

  9. #29
    Super Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Moderator's note: Folks, I had to delete several posts this morning, all for questioning one person's intelligence or another. If you need to, please review the TD Comments Policy:

    http://twinsdaily.com/minnesota-twin...er-2013-a.html

    There are always shades of gray and someone who lost a post may complain I left intact a couple of other posts that used a term like no-brainer (because it wasn't directed at anyone) or questioning an exec's baseball knowledge (fair game if done with respect). Please, do NOT get your nose out of joint because of where I happened to draw the line this day, NOR use it to fine-tune your own attempt to get away with as much as you can. Pay particular attention to the posting by John Bonnes that is found at the end of the thread in the above link, about staying far away from the boundaries.

    There are many good posts in this thread, and I encourage those who still remain unclear on what respect means to use them as an example.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    To go slightly off topic, I think it's way past time for MLB to expand the active roster. With 5 man rotations, reliever specialists and pitch counts the norm, 25 man rosters are too small.
    I can't disagree with you more! The game is about players not managers. If a player isn't functional against LHers (or RHers) then he really isn't much. Train players to compete against all-comers (RH and LH) and play the best. The game slows down with player changes--and Lord knows it's too slow as it is right now.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    I can't disagree with you more! The game is about players not managers. If a player isn't functional against LHers (or RHers) then he really isn't much. Train players to compete against all-comers (RH and LH) and play the best. The game slows down with player changes--and Lord knows it's too slow as it is right now.
    My post had nothing at all to do with platoons...just expanding the active roster. You know that right? In the AL, if you have 13 pitchers, then you have to start a DH and 8 position players, that leaves three backups. I enjoy double switches, I like the strategy that used to be the norm but has been lost due to having to have so many pitchers on the roster.
    Last edited by ThePuck; 09-25-2013 at 01:31 PM.
    Just remember: You put the lime IN the coconut. Only THEN, can you drink it all up.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    To go slightly off topic, I think it's way past time for MLB to expand the active roster. With 5 man rotations, reliever specialists and pitch counts the norm, 25 man rosters are too small.
    Before the rosters expanded I looked up the AL contenders. The only one that had a 13-man pitching staff was the Red Sox. The rest had 12-man pitching staffs. Except Tampa Bay which had 11.

    I would advocate for the TB model.

    edit

  13. #33
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Oldgoat_MN's Avatar
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    I think we should have the NFL drop its roster to 25 men as well.

    That would make even me pay some attention.
    I'm on a whiskey diet. I've lost 3 days already.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinsfan34 View Post
    It would seem if Terry Ryan wouldn't want to employ it - the manager for 2014 and beyond (whether Gardenhire or a new 'hire') would also have a similar philosophy.

    To Ryan's point, 'who would you platoon?' has some merit. I'm not sure we really have that serviceable of players on offense to do it. And to maybe win another 5-10 games this year - would that make the difference? Maybe they want a high pick this year as if Draft experts are right, being in the top 5 picks will yield a very good prospect in 2014.

    .....

    So again...

    Ryan, "On this club, who would you want to platoon?"
    The short answer is that you could platoon for almost any of the Twins lineup and see an improvement (the exception is Mauer at catcher), and that's the frustration I have with the statement and why it comes off as a bit ludicrous to some of us. It's also frustrating to hear an argument that is essentially "since you can't platoon everyone...." I mean, I'm not even saying you have direct platoons, but every IF with the exception of 1B is better against RHP, so a LHB in the infield off the bench as a platoon mate rotating between positions makes a lot of sense.

    A couple of points to make on this.
    1) I think the point was made, already and clearly, that Tom Kelly did use a very significant platoon in 1991 despite being on record as not liking them. If we're harkening back over two decades to an example of a manager who begrudgingly used them and was successful when he did, I think that's more of a point that argues for the fact that parts of this organization are in need of fresh ideas.

    2) I think you need to look beyond average. If you look at OPS, almost every player you mention and some you don't (Doumit) is better 80 points or more (Plouffe is almost 200 points better -- so your stats of choice on him are especially misleading).

    3) IMO, the notion of platooning is ideal when you have a team like this one and need to maximize your competitiveness in every game. However, that requires a different set of roster planning than I think the Twins have used in recent years. If they went into the offseason with a clear plan to get a couple of platoon type players they might have gotten significantly more production out of the equivalent of 3 positions.

    4) The final problem with the answer is that platooning is a simple and accepted idea and we aren't just talking about this season. These are basic steps that improve the team when there aren't a lot of other options to do so.
    Last edited by Alex; 09-25-2013 at 01:46 PM.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    I can't disagree with you more! The game is about players not managers. If a player isn't functional against LHers (or RHers) then he really isn't much. Train players to compete against all-comers (RH and LH) and play the best. The game slows down with player changes--and Lord knows it's too slow as it is right now.
    And if a manager isn't willing to use a basic, accepted strategy to get the best out of his players, then imo, he isn't much either.

    Platoon splits are a fact of the game.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonestar View Post
    Before the rosters expanded I looked up the AL contenders. The only one that had a 13-man pitching staff was the Red Sox. The rest had 12-man pitching staffs. Except Tampa Bay which had 11.

    I would advocate for the TB model.

    edit
    You have to have a darn fine pitching staff to only have 11 nowadays....which TB has...but even 12 pitchers, the point is still relatively the same. Dodgers in '61 had like 9 pitchers, same with the Cards in mid 60s, yet I'm pretty sure it was still a 25 man roster rule. That leaves some room from more strategy.
    Just remember: You put the lime IN the coconut. Only THEN, can you drink it all up.

  17. #37
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    I can't disagree with you more! The game is about players not managers. If a player isn't functional against LHers (or RHers) then he really isn't much. Train players to compete against all-comers (RH and LH) and play the best. The game slows down with player changes--and Lord knows it's too slow as it is right now.
    A good gameday manager, with tactical skills and acumen, can make a difference in close games. I have no problem with that being a part of the equation. It's like a symphony orchestra - you have to have quality musicians, but a good conductor is also an essential piece of the puzzle. Same idea here.

  18. #38
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    It's precisely when you DON'T have regular everyday good players that platooning makes sense. Again, Parm and Plouffe next year eventually.

  19. #39
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    The problem I see with them is when do you start it? Morneau couldn't hit lefties that well when he first came up... He became MVP Morneau when he figured it out. The truth is that some of this takes time and repetition to develop. I agree that there's a point when you recognize that JJ cannot hit lefties. The problem is that you have to let him try enough times and fail at it to a point where it's obvious he isn't going to learn.

    And in this regard, TR is right, especially with large pitching staffs. You cannot build a roster around this idea... It certainly might help with an established roster and an obvious gaping hole where a guy that fills other positions of need becomes available who also has those favorable platoon splits... but there's a lot of ifs there.

  20. #40
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    You cannot build a roster around this idea...
    Which no one has even remotely suggested in any way whatsoever.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
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