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Thread: Government Shutdown and the Affordable Care Act

  1. #21
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer biggentleben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    My biggest worry is the potentially adverse effects on a still shaky economy. We could see some companies react to this (to save their own business model) in ways that dramatically shift employment for the worse.
    I will say that I was offered a job last week that I found out would be a personal insurance policy through ACA for health insurance rather than the group insurance I currently have. With my eye history and current weight (take my BP, cholesterol, etc. and I'm rated very well, but the weight number is off of certain scales and is a red flag), my individual policy would have cost more than the per-month stipend they were offering. I ended up turning down the job (though I utilized it to get a promotion and raise at the current job, so it worked very well), but ACA certainly in the short-term had a drastic effect on my perception of that job.
    Staff Writer for Tomahawktake.com, come check it out!

  2. #22
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer biggentleben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
    My understanding is that Jesus' message was personal. Only you can repent and save yourself with the grace of God. One has a personal obligation to serve God and those who cannot help themselves. One has the obligation to be charitable with one's own blessings (not just money), but one does NOT have the obligation to be charitable with others blessings. In fact, this is immoral.
    If we were to break down Christianity to Christ, then the faith is incredibly failing in its care for one another. Christ's greatest command was to love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul, and your mind. His second was to love your neighbor as yourself. An Acts 2 church, the ORIGINAL Christian church would be seen as a cult now for its reliance on the members to use all possessions for the betterment of the church and the ministry of Christ. The average church member, according to the last Gallop poll I've read, gives to ALL charities (not just their church, but all charities) at a 1.8% giving rate. The average non-church member gives at a 1.9% rate. In general, our society emphasizes personal wealth over societal concerns, expecting the taxes taken from our paychecks to take care of the poor and needy, and Christians and non-Christians subscribe to this at the same level.

    I agree if we were living life as Christ's hands and feet, this wouldn't be needed because we would all be helping our poor and widows, but that's not the world that we live in, and seeing that, we need to work with the government system we have.
    Staff Writer for Tomahawktake.com, come check it out!

  3. #23
    Head Moderator All-Star glunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Uh, insurance companies can only make 15% a year from now on......the costs are not going up because of insurance companies, you might want to look at what is driving costs.
    There was a great article in Time Magazine a few months ago -- I think the author was Steven Brill -- where he explained why hospitals can get away with charging $50 for something that costs them less than $1. I agree that this is worth looking at.

  4. #24
    Head Moderator All-Star glunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
    1. "I wish someone could explain to me how a Christian could oppose the Affordable Care Act."

    This is your opening line. You obviously think Christians have an obligation to support the ACA, no?

    This is only about beliefs and what you think Christianity teaches Christians about hiring their government to compel of its citizens.

    You realize that of the uninsured in the country, only a small percentage was wanting but unable to afford/be insurable, right? The vast majority do not have insurance by choice and many will pay the fine (tax*) which will be cheaper than purchasing the bronze plan.

    Furthermore,


    2. Don't we already have medicaid?


    Last, you should go to the ACA enrollment Facebook page and read the complaints. Even the bronze plan is still unaffordable for many. They are shocked, thinking they would qualify for a subsidy and now realizing that it's not in their budget.

    My insurance premiums and deductible are going up dramatically because of the ACA -- as are most peoples'.

    My understanding is that Jesus' message was personal. Only you can repent and save yourself with the grace of God. One has a personal obligation to serve God and those who cannot help themselves. One has the obligation to be charitable with one's own blessings (not just money), but one does NOT have the obligation to be charitable with others blessings. In fact, this is immoral.


    This is a job killer, wage reducer, full-time to less than 30 hour work week, 2.6 trillion to the debt increasing over the next ten years unpopular law; which also is full of exceptions and waivers, making the application of the law different from what was originally passed and unequal.

    One could go on and on, but no, I don't think Jesus has the choirs in Heaven singing gilded hymns.
    I am not arguing that Christians have an obligation to believe anything -- I am merely asking how they can oppose something that seems so consistent with the teachings of the New Testament without proposing something better to help poor people get health care.

    That said, please explain why you think this will be such a disaster considering how it has worked in Massachusetts. And why should I have to pay a dime to cover the emergency room visits of people who can afford insurance but choose not to pay for it?

  5. #25
    Just got my insurance bill for next year went down $10 a month.

  6. #26
    Super Moderator All-Star ChiTownTwinsFan's Avatar
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    A friend of mine's went from $550/mo to $371/mo.
    "Peace, love, dope! Now get the hell out!"
    Resistance is Sisyphusian!

  7. #27
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiTownTwinsFan View Post
    A friend of mine's went from $550/mo to $371/mo.
    That's good, the question is - how much is this going to impact people 25-35 who are least likely to need health insurance, already strapped with much higher student loans than previous generations, and are likely not yet on a true career path but trying to make ends meet? Or the people working 2 or 3 jobs, one of which for benefits?

    This law is largely funded off of their backs, I have serious reservations about how that's going to play out economically. Ben's example above works fairly well for that.

  8. #28
    Levi beat me to the punch. I could just as easily ask how a Christian could support a bill that will take from the young and often struggling. I fail to find the morality in running up bills for the next generation to pay. Hopefully, the youth seduced by messages of compassion, fairness, etc. will realize it’s coming out of their wallets, assuming they enjoy the good fortune if earning a decent living.

  9. #29
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    Well, I won't venture into the religious aspects of the discussion.
    But I will say that the Republicans are being childish.
    You don't have to like the law, but the process should be respected.
    The law was passed by Congress.
    It was upheld by the Supreme Court.
    It was upheld by the People when they overwhelmingly re elected President Obama.

    Again, people don't have to like the law, that is okay.
    But, respect the process, don't throw a tantrum like a little kid just because you didn't get your way.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
    1. "I wish someone could explain to me how a Christian could oppose the Affordable Care Act."

    This is your opening line. You obviously think Christians have an obligation to support the ACA, no?

    This is only about beliefs and what you think Christianity teaches Christians about hiring their government to compel of its citizens.

    You realize that of the uninsured in the country, only a small percentage was wanting but unable to afford/be insurable, right? The vast majority do not have insurance by choice and many will pay the fine (tax*) which will be cheaper than purchasing the bronze plan.

    Furthermore,


    2. Don't we already have medicaid?


    Last, you should go to the ACA enrollment Facebook page and read the complaints. Even the bronze plan is still unaffordable for many. They are shocked, thinking they would qualify for a subsidy and now realizing that it's not in their budget.

    My insurance premiums and deductible are going up dramatically because of the ACA -- as are most peoples'.

    My understanding is that Jesus' message was personal. Only you can repent and save yourself with the grace of God. One has a personal obligation to serve God and those who cannot help themselves. One has the obligation to be charitable with one's own blessings (not just money), but one does NOT have the obligation to be charitable with others blessings. In fact, this is immoral.


    This is a job killer, wage reducer, full-time to less than 30 hour work week, 2.6 trillion to the debt increasing over the next ten years unpopular law; which also is full of exceptions and waivers, making the application of the law different from what was originally passed and unequal.

    One could go on and on, but no, I don't think Jesus has the choirs in Heaven singing gilded hymns.
    And that was a huge part of the problem.
    Young people who CAN afford insurance, but selfishly go without it, then shift the burden to the rest of us when something catastrophic happens and they wind up in the ER, ICU or life support with a 500k medical bill that they will never pay.
    You talk about the fairness of forcing people who don't want insurance to buy it. Well, how fair is it that people who can afford insurance would rather pass the cost on to everyone else when something terrible happens?

  11. #31
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    One final thing, did anyone else notice the comical irony of Ted Cruz reading Green Eggs and Ham during his marathon tantrum?
    You could basically replace the words "Green Eggs and Ham" with "Obamacare", and it would have summed up quite well certain people's stubborn rejection of something that we simply do not KNOW for sure will be a good or bad thing, long term.
    Last edited by Mr. Brooks; 10-05-2013 at 11:14 AM.

  12. #32
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    Do you like
    Obamacare?

    I do not like it,
    Sam-I-am.
    I do not like
    Obamacare.

    Would you like it
    Here or there?

    I would not like it
    here or there.
    I would not like it
    anywhere.
    I do not like
    Obamacare.
    I do not like it,
    Sam-I-am

    Would you like it
    in a house?
    Would you like it
    with a mouse?

    I do not like it
    in a house.
    I do not like it
    with a mouse.
    I do not like it
    here or there.
    I do not like it
    anywhere.
    I do not like Obamacare.
    I do not like it, Sam-I-am.


    Would you try it
    in a box?
    Would you try it
    with a fox?

    Not in a box.
    Not with a fox.
    Not in a house.
    Not with a mouse.
    I would not try it here or there.
    I would not try it anywhere.
    I would not try Obamacare.
    I do not like it, Sam-I-am.

    Would you? Could you?
    in a car?
    Try it! Try it!
    Here it is.

    I woould not ,
    could not,
    in a car

    You may like it.
    You will see.
    You may like it
    in a tree?
    not in a tree.
    I would not, could not in a tree.
    Not in a car! You let me be.

    I do not like it in a box.
    I do not like it with a fox
    I do not like it in a house
    I do mot like it with a mouse
    I do not like it here or there.
    I do not like it anywhere.
    I do not like Obamacare.
    I do not like it Sam-I-am.

    A train! A train!
    A train! A train!
    Could you, would you
    on a train?

    Not on a train! Not in a tree!
    Not in a car! Sam! Let me be!
    I would not, could not, in a box.
    I could not, would not, with a fox.
    I will not try it with a mouse
    I will not try it in a house.
    I will not try it here or there.
    I will not try it anywhere.
    I do not like it, Sam-I-am.


    Say!
    In the dark?
    Here in the dark!
    Would you, could you, in the dark?

    I would not, could not,
    in the dark.

    Would you, could you,
    in the rain?

    I would not, could not, in the rain.
    Not in the dark. Not on a train,
    Not in a car, Not in a tree.
    I do not like it, Sam, you see.
    Not in a house. Not in a box.
    Not with a mouse. Not with a fox.
    I will not try it here or there.
    I do not like it anywhere!

    You do not like
    Obamacare?

    I do not
    like it,
    Sam-I-am.

    Could you, would you,
    with a goat?

    I would not,
    could not.
    with a goat!

  13. #33
    Senior Member All-Star
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    Would you, could you,
    on a boat?

    I could not, would not, on a boat.
    I will not, will not, with a goat.
    I will not try it in the rain.
    I will not try it on a train.
    Not in the dark! Not in a tree!
    Not in a car! You let me be!
    I do not like it in a box.
    I do not like it with a fox.
    I will not try it in a house.
    I do not like it with a mouse.
    I do not like it here or there.
    I do not like it ANYWHERE!

    I do not like
    Obamacare!

    I do not like it,
    Sam-I-am.

    You do not like it.
    SO you say.
    Try it! Try it!
    And you may.
    Try it and you may I say.

    Sam!
    If you will let me be,
    I will try it.
    You will see.

    Say!
    I like Obamacare!
    I do!! I like it, Sam-I-am!
    And I would try it in a boat!
    And I would try it with a goat...
    And I will try it in the rain.
    And in the dark. And on a train.
    And in a car. And in a tree.
    It is so good so good you see!

    So I will try it in a box.
    And I will try it with a fox.
    And I will try it in a house.
    And I will try it with a mouse.
    And I will try it here and there.
    Say! I will try it ANHYWHERE!

    I do so like
    Obamacare!
    Thank you!
    Thank you,
    Sam-I-am

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
    And that was a huge part of the problem.
    Young people who CAN afford insurance, but selfishly go without it, then shift the burden to the rest of us when something catastrophic happens and they wind up in the ER, ICU or life support with a 500k medical bill that they will never pay.
    You talk about the fairness of forcing people who don't want insurance to buy it. Well, how fair is it that people who can afford insurance would rather pass the cost on to everyone else when something terrible happens?
    If that is the huge concern, where was the mandate that folks carry catastrophic insurance rather than a plan they may not be able to afford or even want? That approach suffers from the flaw of not enough young subsidizing the old, similar to Social Security. We see how well that scheme is working out.

  15. #35
    Senior Member All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    This article by Russel Korobkin is rather illuminating.

    [...]In negotiation, the crazy person wins.

    If your counterpart is willing to act in a way that harms both sides rather than making any concessions, you are outflanked. As a rational individual, you should give in, because doing so will make you better off than you otherwise would be, even though your concession will reward your irrational, uncooperative and completely maddening counterpart. [...]

  16. #36
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    I just received an infraction for saying "Also, George W. Bush was not a legitimate authority" in a Twins thread, even though it was both a joke and a rather uncontroversial example of the distinction between "authority vs. legitimate authority" so I am not sure what I can get away with here, but I would actually--perhaps surprisingly--say that I would imagine Christians and all those supposedly with a deep sense of compassion would want rather rampant and deep change with how healthcare is administered in America. It's a joke and a mess and we still cannot provide coverage for every human being. Somehow. I don't view the ACA as a significantly great improvement. Only a single-payer, not-for-profit system is going to be a significantly great improvement.

    I do know that if I still an adjunct (though I could be thus forced into this decision again next fall), I would have to quit teaching or work for two or more different colleges. At my particular community college, adjuncts teaching 5 classes a semester make about $7,400 after taxes. That's an abomination, but just imagine being limited to only three classes because the college cannot afford benefits?

  17. #37
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Good post Shane and sympathies on the infraction, I thought it was clearly tongue in cheek.

  18. #38
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Of course the ACA should have nothing to do with this shutdown. It's only because of one part of one party in one house of Congress that this is even occurring. Yet, it amazes that two things dominate most of the talk about the GS in the mainstream media:

    1. That both parties are to blame for this, and
    2. That this is actually the time to debate the merits of Obamacare

    Both of those two things are blatantly false.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    This article by Russel Korobkin is rather illuminating.
    The tried and true "crazy person" argument. Show me the crazy. Asking Congress to live by the law as originally written until Obama unilaterally exempted them? Removing a tax on medical devices that actually improve healthcare? Funny how simply enrolling in Obamacare has been an ordeal despite ample time to prepare and less online traffic than anticipated. A taste of the incapable bureaucracy come.

    And if the Left is so weary of appeasement, why the concessions to some of the most brutal thugs in the world? Obama reached out to the new leader of Iran for discussion but won't afford the same courtesy to democratically elected leaders in his own country. I find that far more illuminating than this silly article.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Good post Shane and sympathies on the infraction, I thought it was clearly tongue in cheek.
    It was clearly tongue in cheek.
    Just remember: You put the lime IN the coconut. Only THEN, can you drink it all up.

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