Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum
Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 108

Thread: The Doumit, Willingham trade challenge

  1. #81
    I can't come up with a good reason to keep Doumitt.
    Willingham, I can see a few reasons.
    1. His $7M is not likely to matter in terms of budget so there is likely to utility in terms of managing budget.
    2. If he bounces back to somewhere near 2012, he could net a decent prospect.
    3. He appears to be a good clubhouse guy and we already lack leadership.
    4. He likely won't be blocking anyone. Even if all of the "prospects" are playing as well as we could hope, he can DH.

    I see no reason to keep him after the trade deadline. Move him for whatever you can get, including nothing if that's all his performance warrants.
    Last edited by Major Leauge Ready; 10-14-2013 at 08:47 AM.

  2. #82
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    3,604
    Like
    65
    Liked 378 Times in 232 Posts
    I'm a gambling man, at least when it comes to the assets the Pohlad's control, so I'm more inclined to hold onto Willingham and hope his trade value increases by July. Though I do wonder, even if he has a season akin to 2012, is his value for the last 2-3 months of the season going to be any higher than it will be now for a full season? Teams haven't been willing to part with much at the trade deadline lately, particularly for rentals. The difference on return might not be all that much, stats be damned.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    978
    Like
    3
    Liked 16 Times in 13 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    The Twins have so much money to spend in FA that it's not even a factor. 1 yr contracts basically have no effect on the Twins at this point. The problem with FA is that most (probably all) good FA pitchers are going to require 5 yrs.

    You are still overestimating the quality of the prospect that you would receive especially in a Doumit trade.

    Let's take some time to actually look at how awful the Twins lineup would be. Ranked roughly by ability.


    This is a truly awful lineup. The only hope that the Twins have a top 20 offense is if the rookies and almost rookies (Arcia, Sano, Buxton, Rosario, etc...) are up earlier than expected and are really good immediately. 110 losses here we come.
    The problem is the lineup doesn't get dramatically better with Doumit and Willingham in there. I mean, we all hope it does, but....

    I do think that part of the assumption in trading them (at least my hope) is they bring in a younger, better hitter.
    Last edited by Alex; 10-14-2013 at 01:22 PM.

  4. #84
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    2,293
    Like
    32
    Liked 134 Times in 82 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    The problem is the lineup doesn't get dramatically better with Doumit and Willingham in there. I mean, we all hope it does, but....

    I do think that part of the assumption in trading them (at least my hope) is they bring in a younger, better hitter.
    Doumit I don't really care about. He's not a good enough hitter unless he's catching and he's terrible at catching. But Willingham is the 2nd best hitter on the team. I don't see how that is even debatable. Perhaps he is injured again and sucks but when the next best hitter is Brian Dozier there isn't a lot of competition.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    978
    Like
    3
    Liked 16 Times in 13 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    Doumit I don't really care about. He's not a good enough hitter unless he's catching and he's terrible at catching. But Willingham is the 2nd best hitter on the team. I don't see how that is even debatable. Perhaps he is injured again and sucks but when the next best hitter is Brian Dozier there isn't a lot of competition.
    Please note my use of the words "dramatically "and "hope." Saying someone is the second best hitter on this team is like saying, well, someone is the best pitcher on this team -- ie not much. I'd argue that Arcia will probably fit that bill next year, but again, that's hope.

    But, more to the point, Willingham had one good month in 2013, one. I realize he was hurt some of the season and hopefully he comes back to some kind of form, but I think an .800 OPS is a questionable hope. Until he shows that last year was a fluke and not a sign of decline (not unusual in a 34 year-old power hitter -- 35 next season), I don't know how the notion that he improves the lineup "dramatically" or is the "2nd best hitter on the team" isn't debatable.
    Last edited by Alex; 10-14-2013 at 10:54 PM.

  6. #86
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
    Posts
    6,604
    Like
    3,672
    Liked 3,166 Times in 1,355 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Please note my use of the words "dramatically "and "hope." Saying someone is the second best hitter on this team is like saying, well, someone is the best pitcher on this team -- ie not much. I'd argue that Arcia will probably fit that bill next year, but again, that's hope.

    But, more to the point, Willingham had one good month in 2013, one. I realize he was hurt some of the season and hopefully he comes back to some kind of form, but I think an .800 OPS is a questionable hope. Until he shows that last year was a fluke and not a sign of decline (not unusual in a 34 year-old power hitter -- 35 next season), I don't know how the notion that he improves the lineup "dramatically" or is the "2nd best hitter on the team" isn't debatable.
    Willingham is a career .830 OPS, 122 OPS+ MLB hitter over 4200+ PAs. Prior to 2013, he last failed to put up an .800 OPS in his second big league season, 2005. He had an .890 OPS as recently as 2012.

    Now maybe he has fallen off a cliff at age 34. Then again, he might just have had a down season, like thousands of big leaguers in the past, and he'll put up decent numbers again. If i were a betting man, I'd put even money on him having a higher OPS in 2014 than any current Twin not named Mauer.

    He doesn't improve any teams lineup "dramatically." He has, however, certainly improved the Twins lineup over the alternatives in both his seasons here. In any case I see literally almost no downside to keeping him.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  7. #87
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    2,293
    Like
    32
    Liked 134 Times in 82 Posts
    Willingham has had one <.800 OPS season since 2005. It is far more likely that he OPS's better than almost every option the Twins have at LF/RF/DH. And that includes Arcia who I like a lot long term still.

    I guess it just comes down the fact that I'm dead set against being in the position where Parmelee and some random guy like Colabello almost have guaranteed starting positions before spring training starts. I'm not even very excited about Arcia opening the year in the majors. If it was the case where the twins had 2 really good players at LF/RF/DH and we were just looking for one youngster to step up then Willy is expendable but the Twins could be starting the season with below average hitters at almost every spot in the lineup.

    And we are talking about getting rid of Willingham for someone barely rated in the top 200? Really? How bad does everyone want next season to be? It's unlikely to be good but I really don't want a 110 loss season after 3 straight 90+ loss seasons.

  8. #88
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
    Posts
    4,829
    Like
    176
    Liked 663 Times in 374 Posts
    Injury prone players at 34 are a bad thing to plan on OPSing anything. And no field/some slug corner players are some of the easiest to find if you need to.

  9. #89
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    978
    Like
    3
    Liked 16 Times in 13 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Injury prone players at 34 are a bad thing to plan on OPSing anything. And no field/some slug corner players are some of the easiest to find if you need to.
    Thanks, this was going to be my next point. It's not just that there's concern over whether he has declined but that if he doesn't hit well, he doesn't have much else he can do.

  10. #90
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
    Posts
    6,604
    Like
    3,672
    Liked 3,166 Times in 1,355 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Injury prone players at 34 are a bad thing to plan on OPSing anything. And no field/some slug corner players are some of the easiest to find if you need to.
    So what's the upside of giving him away this winter? What's the downside of not giving him away?
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  11. #91
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    978
    Like
    3
    Liked 16 Times in 13 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post

    I guess it just comes down the fact that I'm dead set against being in the position where Parmelee and some random guy like Colabello almost have guaranteed starting positions before spring training starts. I'm not even very excited about Arcia opening the year in the majors. If it was the case where the twins had 2 really good players at LF/RF/DH and we were just looking for one youngster to step up then Willy is expendable but the Twins could be starting the season with below average hitters at almost every spot in the lineup.
    It may have been missed, but I'm not for trading Willingham outright. I'm for trading him provided a suitable replacement bat and more flexible player (someone who isn't ideally suited to just DH) would be placed in his spot

    Quote Originally Posted by USAChief
    He doesn't improve any teams lineup "dramatically." He has, however, certainly improved the Twins lineup over the alternatives in both his seasons here. In any case I see literally almost no downside to keeping him.
    I think it's a bit much to say there is "no" downside but I definitely see more upside keeping him over Doumit.

  12. #92
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    2,293
    Like
    32
    Liked 134 Times in 82 Posts
    But what is the downside to keeping him? It's pretty much non-existent. Maybe he gets injured and completely sucks but the money is basically a sunk cost. I would be shocked if a team offered a trade where they took the whole salary. And the Twins already have 50M left to spend this winter and it's almost guaranteed that they don't spend all of that. Additionally there are almost no legitimate prospects that he is taking playing time from. If Arcia can't outhit the likes of Parmelee, Colabello, Pressley, Mastro then he shouldn't get a starting spot.

    I do think that part of the assumption in trading them (at least my hope) is they bring in a younger, better hitter.
    This really doesn't work since younger, better hitters usually are expensive in FA or you have to trade something valuable to get them. If this is your plan I hope that you reconsider because it's more likely that you are getting Clete Thomas part II as a replacement.

  13. #93
    Senior Member MVP
    Posts
    5,713
    Like
    1,159
    Liked 564 Times in 369 Posts
    The downside is he is an awful defender, and they will continue to trot him out in LF. Oh, and he's old, and not likely to be really, really good.
    Lighten up Francis....

  14. #94
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    2,293
    Like
    32
    Liked 134 Times in 82 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    The downside is he is an awful defender, and they will continue to trot him out in LF. Oh, and he's old, and not likely to be really, really good.
    Let's consider the alternatives and the downsides associated with them.

    Pressley - can't really hit
    Parmelee - hasn't hit in the majors and not a good defender
    Colabello - basically a 30 yr old rookie that is not a good defender
    Mastro - possibly playing CF and not much of a hitter
    Arcia - completely fell apart in the 2nd half but should be up for good at some point next season

    Willingham has his flaws but his competition (pick 3 as starters) completely sucks.

  15. #95
    Senior Member MVP
    Posts
    5,713
    Like
    1,159
    Liked 564 Times in 369 Posts
    Actually, his competition includes:

    Jacoby Ellsbury
    Shin Shoo Choo
    Nate McClouth
    Grady Sizemore

    and a few others that are also options.....if you think he is a LFer. Willingham can't field at all, and these pitchers are terrible. I'd rather have Pressley catch the ball, and not hit, than Josh hit (maybe) and not field.

    Actually, I'd rather sign Ellsbury.....
    Lighten up Francis....

  16. #96
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
    Posts
    6,604
    Like
    3,672
    Liked 3,166 Times in 1,355 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Actually, his competition includes:

    Jacoby Ellsbury
    Shin Shoo Choo
    Nate McClouth
    Grady Sizemore

    and a few others that are also options.....if you think he is a LFer. Willingham can't field at all, and these pitchers are terrible. I'd rather have Pressley catch the ball, and not hit, than Josh hit (maybe) and not field.

    Actually, I'd rather sign Ellsbury.....
    If trading Hammer means the Twins end up with an OF of Ellsbury, Choo and Mcclouth, sign me up.

    I'm skeptical that's what trading Hammer means though.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  17. #97
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    2,293
    Like
    32
    Liked 134 Times in 82 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Actually, his competition includes:

    Jacoby Ellsbury
    Shin Shoo Choo
    Nate McClouth
    Grady Sizemore

    and a few others that are also options.....if you think he is a LFer. Willingham can't field at all, and these pitchers are terrible. I'd rather have Pressley catch the ball, and not hit, than Josh hit (maybe) and not field.

    Actually, I'd rather sign Ellsbury.....
    So Ellsbury fills one of those positions (or CF). There's still another corner OF position (or two) and DH to fill with crap. And I highly doubt the Twins are going to sign multiple FA OF'ers. For the record I am not really against signing an OF'er despite the MiLB depth. But I would also keep Willy (at least until the trade deadline) because the rest of the options completely suck.

  18. #98
    Senior Member MVP
    Posts
    5,713
    Like
    1,159
    Liked 564 Times in 369 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    So Ellsbury fills one of those positions (or CF). There's still another corner OF position (or two) and DH to fill with crap. And I highly doubt the Twins are going to sign multiple FA OF'ers. For the record I am not really against signing an OF'er despite the MiLB depth. But I would also keep Willy (at least until the trade deadline) because the rest of the options completely suck.
    for me.....

    Arcia in RF, FA in CF or LF, and one of their backup types in LF/CF, until Hicks or Buxton is ready. That's what I would do for the OF next year. For DH, I'd probably take a flyer on a guy that has more positional flexibility than Willingham. I think even if Hicks and Buxton and Arcia all work out, you still have room for a legit OF/DH type. And, I think there is more good FA available in the OF than in the starting pitching world. I'd be happy if they moved Willingham, and signed a legit OF. Frankly, I do not expect it to happen.

    edit: I don't think they can fix everything in one year (well, they could, but they won't), so for me, signing a legit FA OF helps in 14 and beyond.
    Lighten up Francis....

  19. #99
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
    Posts
    3,993
    Like
    4
    Liked 124 Times in 90 Posts
    Blog Entries
    67
    Of those guys, only Grady Sizemore is within the Twins budget.

  20. #100
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    978
    Like
    3
    Liked 16 Times in 13 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    Let's consider the alternatives and the downsides associated with them.

    Pressley - can't really hit
    Parmelee - hasn't hit in the majors and not a good defender
    Colabello - basically a 30 yr old rookie that is not a good defender
    Mastro - possibly playing CF and not much of a hitter
    Arcia - completely fell apart in the 2nd half but should be up for good at some point next season

    Willingham has his flaws but his competition (pick 3 as starters) completely sucks.
    If by Arcia "falling apart completely in the second half" you actually mean increasing his OPS by 20 points, then yes, he fell apart. His OBP and AVG did leave something to be desired, but then, wasn't he hurt as well?

    As for the rest, I won't disagree with you completely on Cola or Parmelee, but I don't think that Pressley or Mastro are really in the same category and shouldn't be considered fill ins because they can play any outfield position and should be 4th OF anyway.

    This really doesn't work since younger, better hitters usually are expensive in FA or you have to trade something valuable to get them. If this is your plan I hope that you reconsider because it's more likely that you are getting Clete Thomas part II as a replacement.
    As for this point, if we're talking about better than his career numbers, you're right. However, I was referring to a better hitter than he was last season (and better than I think he'll be next season). Not to mention that if we're just looking for a DH, it really wouldn't cost that much. "Younger hitters" is a pretty big group.
    Last edited by Alex; 10-15-2013 at 01:27 PM.

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
©2014 TwinsCentric, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Interested in advertising with Twins Daily? Click here.