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Thread: Twins Rule#2 on building a team...Defense makes a below Ave rotation Ave

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    What difference does it make WHAT the system is?

    It's not working.
    the system works but it needs to be firing on all cylindars and we do need better starting pitchers. I am not debating that.

  2. #22
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    A really good defense is still just a Band-Aid for a terrible pitching staff. Our staff brings out the defensive playmakers in Dozier and Florimon, but it also exposes Plouffe, Willingham and Arcia. The Twins OF led baseball in assists. Is that because everyone had a cannon for an arm or because there were SO many baserunners on and the ball continued to be hit a high rate? The pitchers are the problem. If we had the Tigers or Cardinals pitching staff but our same lineup, there would be far less clamoring for defensive replacements for Willingham and Arcia, because their exposure would be far less. Bad pitching equals more opportunities for or guys to make mistakes. Defense is important, but even an elite defense won't stop the other team from hitting the ball hard.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    I am sorry if you are somehow offended by how i try to communicate my observations. they are meant to create discussions. but i still have not seen anyone yet show a better observation of how the Twins operate. I have been watching this for years trying to find the patterns and nail down the system as every offseason we all clamor for certain acquisitions and then get something else and wonder what the Twins were thinking. I am putting my observations out there to see if anyone has better insights to their system cause they definately have a school of thought as they don't very from their plan.
    I think most people on the site will agree that your posts do demonstrate how the Twins opporate for the most part. However, the tone and some of the verbiage often comes off as your advocating that this is the proper way to build a team and that is a completely different discussion.

    Many of us do not agree that the Twins are currently valuing the correct kinds of statistics, players or baseball theories. So while there is little disagreement that this is HOW the Twins opporate, the disagreement lies with the endorsement that this is how the Twins SHOULD opporate.

  4. #24
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    I was thinking of trying to offer ways to upgrade their formula at the end but i wanted to atleast explain it in full detail I figured the title "as i see it" would imply that i am distancing myself from what they are doing. as far as writing goes, it is not my strongest suit.

  5. #25
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Brandon: Agree, disagree, or something in between, I appreciate the effort and the attempt at generating thought provoking discussion.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Brandon: Agree, disagree, or something in between, I appreciate the effort and the attempt at generating thought provoking discussion.
    Yes agreed. I was not trying to discount anything Brandon says, I simply wanted to point out where I believe the disconnect was.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    the system works but it needs to be firing on all cylindars and we do need better starting pitchers. I am not debating that.
    But part of the problem with "the system" (or the theory of this one) is that it requires multiple areas to work in cohesion. If all of your pitchers are contact pitchers, you must have a lot of good fielders. This limits the kinds of players that you can pursue in free agency, and even the draft, too. For example, I think this played out in the fact that the Twins tend to struggle to develop middle infielders that can hit and cut players like Cabrera and Hardy loose while keeping Florimon as the answer at SS.

    When you have more variables that rely on and affect each other, the loss or weakening of that one variable decreases the final result dramatically.
    Last edited by Alex; 10-14-2013 at 01:14 PM.

  8. #28
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    I don't know if I can add anything to this discussion.

    I agree with Chief... Thanks Brandon for the topic and I look forward to your other points.

    When it comes to defense... I've always been a defense guy so I'm always going to be biased in that direction.

    I've tried to swim in the different defensive metric waters out there and come away as not impressed with them. I believe they are half baked... So to me... It comes down to this.

    I don't think you can really quantify defense when taking it as a whole across a season or career.

    To me... It's individual moments inside a game. Many games go by with routine play after routine play and defense good or bad just doesn't matter but every once in awhile a moment of defensive definition happens and when it does it influences ERA and it influences Wins and Losses when it happens.

    I guess I've seen it too many times. Just like Bartman in Chicago... A potential out was not an out and the floodgates opened. No error was given on the play but if a catch was made at that time the result may have been different.

    You can go through a season and determine that Ben Revere made 15 catches(for example) that he shouldn't have made. When you calculate how many catches he made it isn't going to look like a big whoop. But in that individual game... One of those 15 catches may have prevented a double and that double may have been followed by 2 Singles and a home run that didn't happen because the catch allowed the team to go sit in the dug out instead.

    One catch can keep 5 runs off the board. Those 5 runs will lower ERA. Defense is always going to be huge in my mind.

    One ball that gets through the hole on Trevor Plouffe that Brett Lawrie would have had will not show up as an error and it sometimes happens when Pitchers NEED IT. With the Bases loaded and One Out. Follow that missed double play ball with a home run and ERA's will climb and pretty soon we hate our pitchers.

    Look at the Tigers Ninth Inning Last night. Who knows what the outcome would have been but... I have no problem saying that we won't know what the outcome would have been because Prince Fielder cost them the game right there in the ninth.

    Iglasias probably should have hung on to that ball but Fielder should have knocked it down.

    Fielder also should have made that catch by the stands. The Fans were causing a problem but it went off his glove first... That was on Prince.

    Prince is amazing and his bat has won some games for Detroit but his defense was an issue in the loss last night. For that Game... His defense mattered.
    "9. Lipstick"

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  9. #29
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Boom Boom's Avatar
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    No one would say that defense doesn't matter. The theme from the OP seems to be that the Twins value good defense over good pitching, because defense is cheaper to get, and a good defense will make a bad pitching staff look better. But when your pitching staff allows a ridiculous amount of balls in play, the potential increases for errors, bad plays, miscues, fielders out of position, home runs, laser line drives, and 12-hoppers through the hole. Even with a good defense, with that much contact there's going to be a bunch of plays that even the best defense couldn't make.

    As for Fielder... he should be the DH and Cabrera should be at first. It's weird, but I think Cabrera is a better 3B than Fielder is a 1B.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post


    To me... It's individual moments inside a game. Many games go by with routine play after routine play and defense good or bad just doesn't matter but every once in awhile a moment of defensive definition happens and when it does it influences ERA and it influences Wins and Losses when it happens.

    I guess I've seen it too many times. Just like Bartman in Chicago... A potential out was not an out and the floodgates opened. No error was given on the play but if a catch was made at that time the result may have been different.
    I've used Bartman as an example before. The only way to prevent Bartman, seeing-eye-singles, Texas-Leaguers, check-swing infield hits, sac flies, moving runners over, come-backers off the pitchers face, Jose Canseco noggin homruns, right fielders tossing the ball to fans in the stands with only 2 outs or incorrect bang-bang plays at the plate is to strike the damn batter out.

    It always comes down to pitching and a strikeout takes out 99% of the variables a team couldn't or at least shouldn't have to plan for.

  11. #31
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post

    Look at the Tigers Ninth Inning Last night. Who knows what the outcome would have been but... I have no problem saying that we won't know what the outcome would have been because Prince Fielder cost them the game right there in the ninth.

    Iglasias probably should have hung on to that ball but Fielder should have knocked it down.

    Fielder also should have made that catch by the stands. The Fans were causing a problem but it went off his glove first... That was on Prince.

    Prince is amazing and his bat has won some games for Detroit but his defense was an issue in the loss last night. For that Game... His defense mattered.
    IMO the issue last night was more a bullpen that couldn't hold a 4 run lead. With better pitching, there is no Fielder defense to talk about. Or at the least, it doesn't matter.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    IMO the issue last night was more a bullpen that couldn't hold a 4 run lead. With better pitching, there is no Fielder defense to talk about. Or at the least, it doesn't matter.
    And that is where our good but inexpensive bullpen would have been a key factor if the Twins were in that game last night.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    And that is where our good but inexpensive bullpen would have been a key factor if the Twins were in that game last night.
    The "4 run lead" thing is problematic though.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  14. #34
    Senior Member All-Star Badsmerf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    the other 2 outfielders were Revere and Span. we already had the speed in the OF. we needed some offense. Offense is the next installment.
    I very much look forward to it.
    Do or do not. There is no try.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    No one would say that defense doesn't matter. The theme from the OP seems to be that the Twins value good defense over good pitching, because defense is cheaper to get, and a good defense will make a bad pitching staff look better. But when your pitching staff allows a ridiculous amount of balls in play, the potential increases for errors, bad plays, miscues, fielders out of position, home runs, laser line drives, and 12-hoppers through the hole. Even with a good defense, with that much contact there's going to be a bunch of plays that even the best defense couldn't make.

    As for Fielder... he should be the DH and Cabrera should be at first. It's weird, but I think Cabrera is a better 3B than Fielder is a 1B.
    Its a theory... Maybe they do... Maybe they don't... Personally I don't agree but We've seen our fair share of Puntos, Tolberts and Butera's over the years.
    "9. Lipstick"

    "How can Canada produce Tie Domi and not have a better military"?

    "I noticed while robbing the First State Bank last night that if you go into the vault when nobody is looking... You can get away with it".

  16. #36
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    IMO the issue last night was more a bullpen that couldn't hold a 4 run lead. With better pitching, there is no Fielder defense to talk about. Or at the least, it doesn't matter.
    No doubt... But the bullpen didn't hold the lead and it put Prince on the stage with a tie game.

    What would have happened in extra innings. No way of knowing. Detroit wasn't given a chance to survive the bullpen failing because of Prince.
    "9. Lipstick"

    "How can Canada produce Tie Domi and not have a better military"?

    "I noticed while robbing the First State Bank last night that if you go into the vault when nobody is looking... You can get away with it".

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