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Thread: Twins seek rotation help for second straight offseason

  1. #21
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    Realistically, can the Twins sign a top-tier Free Agent? I really don't think so. They would have to overpay significantly because they just can't compete until and unless the young 'uns develop. Somebody in the second tier is possible, I think. That would be somebody with either poor performance or injuries last year, but someone who has shown they can be a #1 or #2. Third tier, the Pelfrey or Correia types, are obtainable. I hope the Twins can sign a decent second tier guy and maybe a third tier guy and get some bouncebacks.

  2. #22
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major Leauge Ready View Post
    What would you have done differently last year? Specifically, which FA SPs would you have signed?
    The problem was that the Twins signed pitchers without any meaningful upside. Correia and Pelfrey both pitched about as well as anyone could have reasonably expected, and they were still both below-average. Those aren't guys who have even a chance to move the needle for one of the worst rotations in baseball.

    If the Twins had gambled on some pictures with actual potential -- which may have required more money, or simply a leap of faith -- they might have ended up with players who developed into assets, or trade chips. Of course, those pitchers might have also fizzled or gotten hurt, but in that case the Twins would be in no worse a position than they are now, and at least they would have tried. You can't convince me that Correia+Pelfrey signifies trying to do anything other than maintain the status quo while avoiding large financial commitments.

  3. #23
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    Yes, 100% yes. Agents aren't going to be able to raise their asking price just because the Twins show interest, you don't really think Ryan signs players and acts like he is doing them a favor and could care less if they wore his uniform?

    Even if for some reason they did have to pay a tiny bit more, Pohlad already threw out the welcome mat. Ryan pussyfoots around free agency year after year. Last year he played coy after the Cubs marked up the price of back end pitchers and by the end of December he was on MLB TV whining about how "sometimes you can't give your money away," while implying that free agents just don't want to come to Minnesota.

    Damn right they don't, it's the land of passive agression where the GM has a reputation of not making bold moves and former players and contemporaries tell the world that the Twins can't win because they will never "Go for it."

    That needs to change, if the Twins want to be players for quality free agents, they need to put out a big, bright neon sign saying "Open for business, and bring your friends!" Of course top guys don't want to come here when there is no evidence that the front office will do what it takes to win. Scream from the rooftop that things are different now and, yes damn it, we will pay you if you are talented and we will pay others like you, we are NOT your fathers Twins.
    One of the greatest posts ever in TD history.

  4. #24
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    I am not clear how anyone could have thought signing Pelfrey last year was some kind of answer to the rotation problem. I was still shocked that the guy was pitching before mid-May, given the injury.

    Now to sign him again. Good god. If I had to bet, I would say they pursue Hughes on a two-year deal for about $20 million. And then they resign Pelfrey. And that's it. Maybe they don't even get Hughes, and Erik Bedard or someone similar comes to town.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer righty8383's Avatar
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    I think Terry Ryan is not only inherently cheap, he simply doesn't like to take risks, weather on the FA market or making big trades when the team is contending. Even though the Pohlads seem to be giving their blessing to spend some money, I have a hard time believing TR will make a big signing. The Twins have never been in a better position to go after a guy like Tanaka, yet I would be floored if our favorite team was announced as the highest bidders. I don't think Terry Ryan can stand the thought of feeling responsible if, God forbid, a big ticket signing doesn't work out.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major Leauge Ready View Post
    What would you have done differently last year? Specifically, which FA SPs would you have signed?
    Puck is not Terry Ryan and therefore what he would or would not have done has no bearing on the Twins, as interesting as it may have been. Ryan is not being judged on how he compares to the posters on Twins Daily, he is being judged based on how he improves this team.

    Here is what we know about last off season. First, there were 15 above average free agent pitchers on the market. Second, many of those pitchers finished 2013 above average, though not all by any means (not to mention the pitchers that were below average and rebounded to have nice years like Jimenez). Third, Ryan signed two pitchers that were below average. Fourth, one of those pitchers was coming off of a significant injury. Fifth, both pitchers were below average in 2013.

    As far as I can tell there are only two possible conclusions to be drawn. First, Ryan was simply punting on 2013 or second, he tried and failed to improve this rotation. Either one is unacceptable, IMO.

    Terry Ryan is getting paid to make this team better. One of the tools he has at his disposal is free agency. The posters on this board can go round and round about whether Ryan could have signed pitcher X or Y but in the end it means nothing. It is up to Ryan to get these pitchers to sign whether they are initially amenable or not. If he is unable to perform his duties then he needs to be replaced.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Changing a comma to a period deviates the sentence from what it meant to something different. For almost all of the free agent pitchers signed with a new team last winter a GM could say "This year we thought we did a little better with the rotation with ..."
    and follow the comma in the statement with some form of we didn't meet the goal.The Dodger's GM is all smiles with his signings. Cleveland with Kazmir, Cubs with Feldman.

    As starters that is about it.

    Ryan has to be happy that Correia maintained his level of pitching and did not regress or get injured.

    Punctuate and rationalize any way you wish, but your blanket conclusions still don't adequately defend the indefensible. To be "happy" about a #5-6 level SP, who, I might add, was unwanted/unneeded by his previous employer ( an employer more than happy to, in effect, "trade" him for Liriano, for less money), for maintaining, and not regressing, from his #5-6 level as a Starting Pitcher is just a sorrowful sop to a GM's 2013 clearly failed machinations.

    Liriano, Sanchez, Iwakuma, Kuroda, Colon, Guthrie, Lohse would beg to differ with your scattershot conclusion concerning that being "about it" for SPs...... they all had 2013 WAR values and/or superior performance metrics and peripherals that would have made them the Ace of the Twins staff.
    Last edited by jokin; 10-17-2013 at 03:13 AM.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Triple-A
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    They aren't going to spend significant $ on a SP. However the payroll will be very low the next 2 years without making any big splashs's.

    Atlanta needs to resign McCann, they also need a 2B & have little to no payroll space left.

    If the Twins were willing to eat most or all of Uggla's salary enabling them to resign McCann could Brian Dozier fetch Alex Wood? In a Dozier for Uggla & Wood possible deal. A Simmons/Dozier combo would be the best defensive middle infield in baseball by far. As good as Wood has looked Perkins may need to be included to sweeten the pot.

    I would love to start envisioning a future Wood, Meyer, Stewart, Berrios, Gibson/May rotation
    Last edited by Trevor0333; 10-17-2013 at 05:04 AM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    One of the greatest posts ever in TD history.
    Respectfully disagree as it is the same post over and over again. In an effort to discredit to make their point once again a poster changes context. The start of the thread it is eliminating half of the sentence that Ryan spoke. What you label as a great post takes what Ryan said while laughing as whining. How do you have a discussion with people when you cannot have faith in what they cite as being accurate? If a student handed you that kind of paper, what grade would you give?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Punctuate and rationalize any way you wish, but your blanket conclusions still don't adequately defend the indefensible. To be "happy" about a #5-6 level SP, who, I might add, was unwanted/unneeded by his previous employer ( an employer more than happy to, in effect, "trade" him for Liriano, for less money), for maintaining, and not regressing, from his #5-6 level as a Starting Pitcher is just a sorrowful sop to a GM's 2013 clearly failed machinations.

    Liriano, Sanchez, Iwakuma, Kuroda, Colon, Guthrie, Lohse would beg to differ with your scattershot conclusion concerning that being "about it" for SPs...... they all had 2013 WAR values and/or superior performance metrics and peripherals that would have made them the Ace of the Twins staff.

    Kuroda, Colon, Guthrie, Sanchez, Iwakuma did not change teams. So out of the pitchers that CHANGED teams, 3 had good years. Greinke and Lohse because that is what you would expect, and Liriano. Changed teams, not stayed with the same team. That was the parameter I set for my thought. You can discuss how I might be wrong, but you can't change the parameter that I set. Correia for better or worse pitched about like he always has. Can't say that for Haren, Saunders, Marcum, McCarthy ....and the rest who all had seasons pretty much worse than what Correia had.
    Last edited by Riverbrian; 10-17-2013 at 11:33 AM. Reason: I removed one line for civil reasons... the rest is fine.

  11. #31
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Respectfully disagree as it is the same post over and over again. In an effort to discredit to make their point once again a poster changes context. The start of the thread it is eliminating half of the sentence that Ryan spoke. What you label as a great post takes what Ryan said while laughing as whining. How do you have a discussion with people when you cannot have faith in what they cite as being accurate? If a student handed you that kind of paper, what grade would you give?

    There is no amount of context that turns "we thought Pelfrey and Coreia was a good plan" into a defensible idea. That idea, and the fact that Terry Ryan actually believed it, is exactly the problem.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    There is no amount of context that turns "we thought Pelfrey and Coreia was a good plan" into a defensible idea. That idea, and the fact that Terry Ryan actually believed it, is exactly the problem.
    Exactly...and I had already addressed the supposed context change myself earlier when I wrote:

    'This isn't the only quote out there where he said Pelfrey and Correia were bright spots and then deflected how bad the rotation was. What he said in that quote minimizes how bad the rotation was when it starts off the way it did.

    If he was just praising Pelfrey and Correia (like he did before) and taking blame for the rest of rotation as a whole, it would have been said differently. Something like, 'Pelfrey and Correia worked out well (which is not true, BTW, at least in regards to Pelfrey), and then he would have gone on to say the rest of the rotation didn't turn out making our rotation bad and in need of work. But that's not how it went down, he starts by saying the 'This year we thought we did a little better with the rotation with Correia and Pelfrey...'

    BTW, does he believe if he says Pelfrey did well enough this offseason, people will start to believe it?'

    The context doesn't change the fact that he's trying to minimize how bad the rotation was by starting his sentence the way he did and then pointing out some supposed bright spots (Correia and Pelfrey). My comments would have been the same with the whole thing in there....but the part I omitted doesn't change the main point of what he was saying anyway. If one is adamant that it does, they had the link I provided and they could discuss that instead of deflecting.

    And, again, he's deflected this year's rotation issues in at least one other interview even when directly asked about the poor rotation by pointing to Pelfrey and Correia as his bright spots, then shifting the discussion to the poor offense. That interview was posted and discussed in TD already.
    Last edited by ThePuck; 10-17-2013 at 09:48 AM.
    Just remember: You put the lime IN the coconut. Only THEN, can you drink it all up.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    What you label as a great post takes what Ryan said while laughing as whining. How do you have a discussion with people when you cannot have faith in what they cite as being accurate?
    Well as long as your interpretation of that interview is the accurate one.

    Is the zero inflection of hyperbole rule not in effect when one defends Terry Ryan?

    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    The Dodger's GM is all smiles with his signings. Cleveland with Kazmir, Cubs with Feldman. As starters that is about it. Ryan has to be happy that Correia maintained his level of pitching and did not regress or get injured.
    No other team was happy with their free agent starters?

    I still stand by the whining statement, he may have been laughing, but it was in frustration and the comment was not helping the cause or the perception of the Twins as a free agent destination. It sounded like childish grousing.

  14. #34
    Senior Member Triple-A
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    Quote Originally Posted by righty8383 View Post
    I think Terry Ryan is not only inherently cheap, he simply doesn't like to take risks, weather on the FA market or making big trades when the team is contending. Even though the Pohlads seem to be giving their blessing to spend some money, I have a hard time believing TR will make a big signing. The Twins have never been in a better position to go after a guy like Tanaka, yet I would be floored if our favorite team was announced as the highest bidders. I don't think Terry Ryan can stand the thought of feeling responsible if, God forbid, a big ticket signing doesn't work out.
    I don't think this really explains things. First of all, it's not Ryan's money. And he's well under his budget for spending Pohlad's money. So there's no real "risk" involved in signing second-tier free agents.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor0333 View Post
    I would love to start envisioning a future Wood, Meyer, Stewart, Berrios, Gibson/May rotation
    Don't mean to stomp on your optimism, but leaving aside Wood, how often has a near-100% unproven projected rotation ever come to fruition? I mean, that is rebuilding in the extreme. Even the late-90s Twins had Radke established before adding Milton etc.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivlikejehu View Post
    I don't think this really explains things. First of all, it's not Ryan's money. And he's well under his budget for spending Pohlad's money. So there's no real "risk" involved in signing second-tier free agents.
    It should be noted that TR's aversion to risk extends well beyond traditional free agency. He's also never inked a significant international free agent (at least, not before the spending limits were put in place), never went above-slot on a draft choice (again, before the spending caps were adopted), and as much as he was called "Trader Terry" and indeed made some good ones, he has a fairly conservative trade history too -- generally only trading from surplus for modest returns.

    I'm starting to think it goes beyond risk aversion. I think TR and the Twins staff/ownership in general approach the team almost like a high school or amateur team: we'll do our best to build a team with the players we're given, and we don't mind taking some lumps because that's the cyclical nature of the game. In some ways, it's refreshing compared to the win-at-all-costs attitude, but it's also frustrating when there is obvious talent here (both on the field, as in 2002-2010, and in the front office) but they seemingly limit themselves to only the most basic methods of player acquisition.

  17. #37
    I will join you in disagreement but I don’t think purposeful misrepresentation is worthy of the respect you have shown. If a student does not provide credible research it is poor work. Providing a link does not change the fact this was purposefully misleading. This would not be tolerated within a professional environment. To label this a great post is truly sad.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    One of the greatest posts ever in TD history.
    There seems to be a lot of confusion over which post you are saying this about...even though you quoted it :-)
    Just remember: You put the lime IN the coconut. Only THEN, can you drink it all up.

  19. #39
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    There seems to be a lot of confusion over which post you are saying this about...even though you quoted it :-)
    Yep. It wasn't yours, Puck, it wasn't yours . . .

  20. #40
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    For the record, I would still be happy with Edwin Jackson even in the unlikely scenario that his numbers in Wrigley wouldn't have changed inside TF. I still bet that he is better than Correia next year and certainly better than Pelfrey. And he would be around into the "new era" that is coming someday. I'll eat crow about Shaun Marcum, though.

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