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Thread: Twins and GroupThink vs Accountability

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    The Twins do not operate in a competitive environment. The bulk of their money is made through a cooperative effort with the other teams.
    What innovation are the Twins lacking in your opinion?
    Like I said, the Twins are fine from a business standpoint, though they would make more with a better on-field product. And this is an organization that was almost contracted, so really their business success owes to outside forces. In any case, the competitive deficiencies show up in terms of wins and losses.

    With some changes apparently being made in Philly (even with Amaro in place), the Twins are now the last MLB organization to resist a rigorous and data-driven approach to management, whether that concerns player evaluation, contract formulation, medical treatment, and so on. They are the literal antithesis of innovation, openly defying what amounts to MLB best practices, and for irrational reasons.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    You rarely see someone move laterally from organization to organization. That makes baseball different from business. When someone is brought from the outside it is a promotion based on hoped for expectations or said person is acailable for that job because they have been fired elsewhere(deemed not good enough). Apply this to you. Rather than you being promoted, they brought someone else in who held a position similar to yours. You would be real happy about that? Why weren't you promoted? Oh, the other person came from an organization that was deemed more successful. What did management just tell you about the work that you and your department have done. Management has determined your level of the Peter Principal. If you think they are wrong, you shouldn't be happy.
    Brian Auld may field a few inquiries about a GM position. If he politely declines to discuss it, the other organization isn't going to bring it up either. Discretion.
    But MY happiness is not essential to the company's success. It is not, and should not be the overriding factor when it comes to personnel moves. The goal of the Twins should be to win baseball games. To accomplish this goal they should be looking to get the best possible people in the best possible positions. To do that you need to consider ALL options. If an internal guy ends up with the best credentials, great! If not, tough, he or she can be pissed off, but they can't blame the boss because their resume or interview skills are inferior.

    The first thought when filling positions of need should not be to placate those already on the payroll.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivlikejehu View Post
    Like I said, the Twins are fine from a business standpoint, though they would make more with a better on-field product. And this is an organization that was almost contracted, so really their business success owes to outside forces. In any case, the competitive deficiencies show up in terms of wins and losses.

    With some changes apparently being made in Philly (even with Amaro in place), the Twins are now the last MLB organization to resist a rigorous and data-driven approach to management, whether that concerns player evaluation, contract formulation, medical treatment, and so on. They are the literal antithesis of innovation, openly defying what amounts to MLB best practices, and for irrational reasons.
    And you proof on how they evaluate players is?
    Your knowledge on how they medically treat the players and how players make medical decisions is? Better yet what medical system treats patient's based on statistics versus individual symptoms?

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    But MY happiness is not essential to the company's success. It is not, and should not be the overriding factor when it comes to personnel moves. The goal of the Twins should be to win baseball games. To accomplish this goal they should be looking to get the best possible people in the best possible positions. To do that you need to consider ALL options. If an internal guy ends up with the best credentials, great! If not, tough, he or she can be pissed off, but they can't blame the boss because their resume or interview skills are inferior.

    The first thought when filling positions of need should not be to placate those already on the payroll.
    I guess older people have a far different world view than what you do. All things being equal, you wouldn't be unhappy that a company passed you over for a promotion and gave it to an outsider.
    Best qualified. You did not refute my first statement in regards to FO positions. SO when you compare what is available out there to promote it would be subjective as to who is the better candidate as you are asking someone to do a role they had never done before. See Wayne Krivisky's career.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    And you proof on how they evaluate players is?
    Your knowledge on how they medically treat the players and how players make medical decisions is? Better yet what medical system treats patient's based on statistics versus individual symptoms?
    The proof is everywhere. You can choose to deny it, I really don't care. Competent organizations don't give an extension to Nick Blackburn or give two years to Correia. Medically sound organizations don't constantly put players out there who shouldn't be, misdiagnose injuries, dramatically underestimate recovery time, etc. Modern organizations don't have just one full-time stats guy.

    The Twins are living in the past. That's a fact, not an opinion. If you're opinion is that living in the past is smart, then so be it. My opinion is that the other 29 organizations must have some reason for moving forward.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    I guess older people have a far different world view than what you do. All things being equal, you wouldn't be unhappy that a company passed you over for a promotion and gave it to an outsider.
    Best qualified. You did not refute my first statement in regards to FO positions. SO when you compare what is available out there to promote it would be subjective as to who is the better candidate as you are asking someone to do a role they had never done before. See Wayne Krivisky's career.
    Well I'm not sure what is considered middle age, but if I'm not there yet, I'm knocking on the door. I don't know how many times I have to keep saying that for a large competitive business, making an individual employee happy should not come before what's best for the business.

    I don't know what your first point is. That the Twins can't possibly lure a qualified outsider into their employ? Why would it be subjective, there are interviews, there are resumes, there are plenty of factors that can be evaluated to determine who is more qualified. These are common hiring practices, why should the Twins also not use them? Do they already have better or equal employees to everyone else in the industry? If so, prove it, have open interviews.

    I think you keep avoiding the big picture as I have never said an internal candidate should not get the job if they are the best for the position. I have a hard time believing that under the hypothetical situation where the Twins are looking to fill a position, anybody thinks they shouldn't hire the person who could best put the team in a position to win.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    Well I'm not sure what is considered middle age, but if I'm not there yet, I'm knocking on the door. I don't know how many times I have to keep saying that for a large competitive business, making an individual employee happy should not come before what's best for the business.

    I don't know what your first point is. That the Twins can't possibly lure a qualified outsider into their employ? Why would it be subjective, there are interviews, there are resumes, there are plenty of factors that can be evaluated to determine who is more qualified. These are common hiring practices, why should the Twins also not use them? Do they already have better or equal employees to everyone else in the industry? If so, prove it, have open interviews.

    I think you keep avoiding the big picture as I have never said an internal candidate should not get the job if they are the best for the position. I have a hard time believing that under the hypothetical situation where the Twins are looking to fill a position, anybody thinks they shouldn't hire the person who could best put the team in a position to win.
    There is a reason you do not understand the first point that is not easily explainable in a short sentence. Open interviews is not the Pohlad style. Backroom and secrecy is.
    The most qualified candidate is the one who has successfully done the job before. At the VP/GM level there are generally not many looking for work as the key word successful shows up. Anything after that becomes a bit of a guessing game. You are asking someone to do a job they haven't done before. The world is littered with people who did fine at one level but couldn't do the next step up. That is the big picture

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivlikejehu View Post
    The proof is everywhere. You can choose to deny it, I really don't care. Competent organizations don't give an extension to Nick Blackburn or give two years to Correia. Medically sound organizations don't constantly put players out there who shouldn't be, misdiagnose injuries, dramatically underestimate recovery time, etc. Modern organizations don't have just one full-time stats guy.

    The Twins are living in the past. That's a fact, not an opinion. If you're opinion is that living in the past is smart, then so be it. My opinion is that the other 29 organizations must have some reason for moving forward.
    Medicine isn't like a flat tire on a car. I am happy that you personally do not know the concept of differential diagnosis.
    You made the claim they do not use data. Duck and run. Deny all you want. 20 other posters on Twins Daily isn't proof.

  9. #89
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    Moderator note: This is an interesting thread, addressing (what I think is) an important aspect of Twins management/philosophy. Lets keep the discussion on topic and off other posters.

    Thanks.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivlikejehu View Post
    The proof is everywhere. You can choose to deny it, I really don't care. Competent organizations don't give an extension to Nick Blackburn or give two years to Correia. Medically sound organizations don't constantly put players out there who shouldn't be, misdiagnose injuries, dramatically underestimate recovery time, etc. Modern organizations don't have just one full-time stats guy.

    The Twins are living in the past. That's a fact, not an opinion. If you're opinion is that living in the past is smart, then so be it. My opinion is that the other 29 organizations must have some reason for moving forward.
    Except that the Twins have more than one full-time stats guy. Ryan has said as much in recent interviews.

    Are they late to the game? Sure. But let's put the "ONE STAT GUY" thing to bed already.

    And at this point, are we still bashing Kevin Correia? The team got a marginal #4/5 starter for a #4/5 starter price. Most of the guys we were rah-rah about last winter were far worse than Kevin Correia, often at 2-3 times the cost.

    I don't think that absolves Ryan of his risk-averse FA signings but Kevin Correia was a good pick-up at the price, whether we want to admit it or not.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Except that the Twins have more than one full-time stats guy. Ryan has said as much in recent interviews.

    Are they late to the game? Sure. But let's put the "ONE STAT GUY" thing to bed already.
    I must have missed it then. Where and when did he say they have more than 1, not counting interns?

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivlikejehu View Post
    I must have missed it then. Where and when did he say they have more than 1, not counting interns?
    Well, the Twins Daily Offseason Handbook interview, for one.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    What innovation are the Twins lacking in your opinion?
    Let's flip this around because it might be easier to answer. What have the Twins done that is innovative?

    Off the top of my head:

    1) Aggressively pursue intl FA's in Australia and Europe. To date though this has provided almost nothing to the major league club, to be fair there are a few nice prospects that might turn the perception around. Of course their pursuit of Australia and Europe were a result of being late to Venezuela and the Dominican Republic. At best this seems like a double edged sword.

    2) The Twins marketing team clearly has something going for them. Bloomberg's recent analysis ranked the Twins 17th in Attendance and yet 8th in Gate Receipts. That is pretty impressive. Of course the Twins are far behind in the local media TV deals. So again, double edged.

    3) Perhaps something on the scouting side of things. I am not informed enough in what the Twins are doing or what their competitors are to make any judgements. The scuttlebutt implies the Twins are a great scouting team though.

    4) Depending on how you view the Twins FO one could claim their insular attitude and hiring practices are innovative.

    The Twins certainly haven't been innovative with respect to Japanese/Cuban international free agents. Traditional FA is another no. Ryan has made some good trades that have been almost universally liked but none were particularly innovative. Whether there are one or more people within the stats department the Twins aren't pushing the boundaries with advanced metrics. Defensive shifts? Platooning? No and No. Experimentation with the definition of starting rotation, perhaps dropping to 4 starters or limiting innings or piggybacking pitchers? Nope. How about using your best reliever outside of the traditional "closer" role so that he can effect more innings and situations? Pitch framing? Over-budget on international FA's? Scoff, Guffaw and *eye roll*.

    Perhaps some of those are good ideas. Perhaps none are. Perhaps the Twins have good reasons for not embracing these ideas, I don't know. What I do know is that when you are the worst franchise in baseball over a 3 year time period something needs to change. What you have been doing isn't working. When I look at the Twins I just don't see those changes. I don't see the innovation, the trying of new and creative ideas to jump start the organization.

    If you always do what you've always done then you'll always get what you've always got.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by admin View Post
    There's also a disadvantage to not looking within - your best people leave. Also, within the organization, people have less motivation to perform or go the extra mile.
    If a company goes outside the organization 3 or 4 times and passes over an employee for multiple positions because they find better candidates and that employee ends up leaving then what has the company actually lost? If your best people aren't as good as the outside talent then it sounds like something needs to change and your employees leaving isn't a bad start. In fact perhaps that is where it should start. With pink slips. Or perhaps with better training. Either way it shouldn't result in a promotion just because someone happens to reside within your company.

    I'm not making any statements about whether the Twins should or shouldn't clean out their house, just making some general comments.

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