Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: 4-man rotation

  1. #1

    4-man rotation

    The Rockies experimented with it this year, it appears that they may go with it next season as well. With a 4-man rotation, the Twins can avoid the Liam Hendrickses and the Pedro Hernandezes, and Cole de Vrieses of the world, and it would allow them to go with their 8-man, or even...9-man, bullpen. The starters would be limited to somewhere around 80 pitches a game, instead of 100. With pitchers only facing batters twice, instead of 3 times, it would keep opposing batters off-balance.

    A possible Twins 4-man rotation from in-house candidates
    1)Kevin Correia
    2) Samuel Deduno
    3) Scott Diamond (had to put a lefty in)
    4) Kyle Gibson/Vance Worley/Andrew Albers

  2. #2
    Senior Member Triple-A Reider's Avatar
    Posts
    224
    Like
    132
    Liked 58 Times in 38 Posts
    In theory, a 4 man rotation could work if you had 4 solid pitchers who were efficient (e.g. could get fairly deep into ball games with a fairly low # of pitches. In the real world, I am not sure the Twins currently have the staff to pull it off.

    The line up you posted looks weak and has a few issues. Firstly, there are only two legitimate starters from last year (Correia and Deduno) and neither of them were aces. Diamond, Gibson, and Worley couldn't cut it at the MLB level. And Albers, while having some success, hasn't proven that he can be a bona fide starter for a full season. That list leaves us at least 2 quality pitchers short. The line up you suggested would likely require a few long relievers.

    Secondly, it doesn't take into consideration that the Twins may bring Pelfrey back or that they may sign or trade for other starting pitchers.

    Keeping Liam Hendricks, Pedro Hernandez, and Cole de Vrieses off of the mound, while instead putting Diamond, Worely, and Gibson on the mound makes no sense. They are one in the same. Or at least they were for the most part last year.

    I really like your idea of keeping weak pitchers out of the starting rotation, however, I don't see how the Twins can keep them out of the rotation without having a full line up of quality starting pitchers. Replacing weak pitchers with other weak pitchers won't change the end result. Neither will pretending that weak pitchers are anything, but weak.
    Last edited by Reider; 10-26-2013 at 03:14 AM.

  3. #3
    Super Moderator All-Star
    Posts
    3,412
    Like
    165
    Liked 309 Times in 184 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    I'd consider a 4 man if they had 4 good pitchers. This rotation is bad enough as it is to put additional stress on everyone.

  4. #4
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    1,219
    Like
    15
    Liked 65 Times in 47 Posts
    Blog Entries
    26
    Can they get by with an 11 man staff? If so and they create real platoons with the larger bench, it is worth considering. If not, I don't see the point with the current starters.

  5. #5
    A four man rotation means getting 6-7 innings out of your starters more often than not. And them being able to do it in under 100 pitches.

    The flipside is that you still need, then 1-2 pitchers a game to come in and finish, not to mention the closer. The relief pitchers have to be able to pitch for more than one inning, and come back for 2-3 days in a row if necessary.

    You have to have darn good relief pitchers.

    So you are asking pitchers to start 40 games and pitch six innings a game = 240 innings.

    And the remaining bullpen guys to throw 480 innings, easily 60 or so innings each. Some higher, some lower.

    I don't know how it worked back in the sixties. You had pitchers regularly go long, relievers like Al Worthington would pitch multiple innings. I guess there was a swing-man starter for when you wanted to give guys a rest...20 games started, perhaps 30 games in relief. I remember than pitchers like Jim Kaat would even do a relief inning now and then (usually on their throwing day).

    But right now that Twins barely have a 200 inning starter, and even guys like Albers, Deduno and Diamond could barely get past the 5th.

    Unless a pitcher is really smart these days, 100 pitches seems to be the norm be they in a 4 or 5 man rotation and that is 15 pitches an inning. When you deal with pitch counts, you will be seeing more and more of a need for pitchers to throw strikes, or we go back to the Oakland A's and their desire to take 2-3 pitches in at bats just to see if the guy is throwing more balls than strikes, and wearing them down that way.
    Joel Thingvall
    www.thingvall.com
    rosterman at www.twinscards.com

  6. #6
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
    Posts
    5,307
    Like
    1,393
    Liked 1,053 Times in 475 Posts
    I could be wrong, but my memory is the Rockies tried a four man rotation the second half of 2012, and went back to a five man rotation in 2013.

    Am I remembering that wrong?
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  7. #7
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    879
    Like
    108
    Liked 131 Times in 60 Posts
    The thing that is irritating to me is that Gardenhire rarely skips a guy if there's an off-day. Not that it would have mattered the last few years but why would you not want Johan going every fifth day instead of giving him five days between starts and throwing our always garbage fifth starter out there.

  8. #8

    4 man rotation described is different than 4 man rotations of the past

    Maybe I'm wrong but like the way the original poster proposed (and the Rockies did) is have 4 starters on a around a 80 pitch count/ 5 innings. I remember the Rockies had a designated "piggie back" reliever (closer to long relief) for each starter who would come in 4/5/6 inning. I don't see any starter going 200 innings.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rosterman View Post
    A four man rotation means getting 6-7 innings out of your starters more often than not. And them being able to do it in under 100 pitches.

    The flipside is that you still need, then 1-2 pitchers a game to come in and finish, not to mention the closer. The relief pitchers have to be able to pitch for more than one inning, and come back for 2-3 days in a row if necessary.

    You have to have darn good relief pitchers.

    So you are asking pitchers to start 40 games and pitch six innings a game = 240 innings.

    And the remaining bullpen guys to throw 480 innings, easily 60 or so innings each. Some higher, some lower.

    I don't know how it worked back in the sixties. You had pitchers regularly go long, relievers like Al Worthington would pitch multiple innings. I guess there was a swing-man starter for when you wanted to give guys a rest...20 games started, perhaps 30 games in relief. I remember than pitchers like Jim Kaat would even do a relief inning now and then (usually on their throwing day).

    But right now that Twins barely have a 200 inning starter, and even guys like Albers, Deduno and Diamond could barely get past the 5th.

    Unless a pitcher is really smart these days, 100 pitches seems to be the norm be they in a 4 or 5 man rotation and that is 15 pitches an inning. When you deal with pitch counts, you will be seeing more and more of a need for pitchers to throw strikes, or we go back to the Oakland A's and their desire to take 2-3 pitches in at bats just to see if the guy is throwing more balls than strikes, and wearing them down that way.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Oldgoat_MN's Avatar
    Posts
    646
    Like
    130
    Liked 23 Times in 16 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    One thing about baseball that has changed from the days of the 4 man rotations is pitch counts.
    First, you have batters working to get deep into counts.
    Second, you have a reluctance from the coaches to allow pitchers to throw 150 pitches. Should a pitcher do so, it would make headlines.

    Bet Bert did that several times and no one said a thing about it.
    I'm on a whiskey diet. I've lost 3 days already.

  10. #10
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    2,077
    Like
    14
    Liked 89 Times in 55 Posts
    If you were going to do this then it would be completely different than 4 man rotations in the 60's and you wouldn't be counting on your starter to go 6 innings either. You count on your starters to get you through 5 innings and then depend on an 8 man bullpen (possibly 9 men) to finish games.

    The goal also isn't to keep the Hernandez and Martis types out of the rotation but simply to reduce the amount of innings that the starters throw. In 2013 the Twins starters were 1.75 runs (measure by ERA) worse than the relievers. A 4 man rotation would get to the more effective bullpen quicker since starters wouldn't work as deep into games.

    In theory it could work but in reality it is probably a disaster. I also wouldn't like this as a fan. I don't want to see the starter getting pulled in the 5th inning almost every game.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    879
    Like
    108
    Liked 131 Times in 60 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Oldgoat_MN View Post
    One thing about baseball that has changed from the days of the 4 man rotations is pitch counts.
    First, you have batters working to get deep into counts.
    Second, you have a reluctance from the coaches to allow pitchers to throw 150 pitches. Should a pitcher do so, it would make headlines.

    Bet Bert did that several times and no one said a thing about it.
    McCarver doesn't often say something intelligent but when he does it makes you take notice. I can't remember if it was Game 1 or the ALCS but he commented, "Managers should pay attention to pitch counts but they shouldn't be imprisoned by it."

    Makes sense to me. Detroit could possibly be in the World Series if Leyland wasn't terrified of letting Scherzer pitch. Which is odd considering he used to let Drabek and Wakefield go 150+.

  12. #12
    I know that the rotation currently doesn't look good, but once we add 1 or 2 free agents it could look ok, i'm thinking Dan Haren, Phil Hughes, or Scott Kazmir.
    1) Haren/Hughes/Kazmir
    2) Haren/Hughes/Kazmir
    3) Kevin Correia
    5) Samuel Deduno

    Starters would be expected to go around 80 pitches and 5 innings, so 40x5=200. we already have one ready made "piggyback" reliever, anthony swarzak, and we have options for the others: Albers, Diamond, Worley, Gibson, or even Duensing or Pressley, we could also sign someone like Luke Hochevar, who was one of the best relievers on baseball last year and pitched 75 innings. I think the rockies had 3 or 4 "piggyback" relievers, who pitched 2-3 innings, so 80-120 innings.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
©2014 TwinsCentric, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Interested in advertising with Twins Daily? Click here.