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Thread: Cleveland phasing out their mascot

  1. #61
    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Swanson View Post
    If something is offensive to someone, it does not matter to me if the offensive action was intentional. That is how I feel.
    But carry this maxim out. If we find one (many, several) person offended by something, the object of the offense must be withdrawn.

    This is impractical.

    I'm offended that you are offended. So stop?

    Seriously, burning the flag is offensive to many. Intent matters here. It's offensive to many when done so out of disrespect of hatred for America, but not so when the flag is old and worn -- to dispose of it.

    That many are offended does not mean that the freedom of expression, even when the intent is explicitly to offend, is curtailed. Nor should it be. You do not have the right not to be offended.
    Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

  2. #62
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    If the term "Redskin" was meant to actually reflect an honorable history of U.S. interaction with Native Americans, that would be one thing. The fact is that outright mass murder and deceit after deceit after deceit makes up that history. End of story.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
    But carry this maxim out. If we find one (many, several) person offended by something, the object of the offense must be withdrawn.

    This is impractical.

    I'm offended that you are offended. So stop?

    Seriously, burning the flag is offensive to many. Intent matters here. It's offensive to many when done so out of disrespect of hatred for America,
    I think most of us here would agree and argue against someone who came on this site and said they wanted to burn the flag. It is offensive I do not think they should do it, I would hope they would be shamed out of just such an action. It's their right, but it is offensive.

    Just as people now are doing their damnedest to talk Cleveland and Washington from the contiued usage of offensive names and mascots. It is their right, but it is offensive.

    There are plenty of rights we all have but the discretion not to excercise them is sometimes the best option. Offensive mascots is one of those times.

  4. #64
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    "Wow" is right. My God, it's like Michael Scott in Diversity Day.
    This pales in comparison to the laughable attempt to keep gays from marrying. You should give that one a look.

    To me harping on this being an issue of offensive language is misguided. This isn't about people being easily offended.

    The name and logo itself only exist in the first place because of a complete disregard for the idea of respecting Native American culture. This isn't intentional lampooning - it's unintentional driven by ignorance and a lack of empathy. All we're undoing is a wrong that never should have happened in the first place.

  5. #65
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    This pales in comparison to the laughable attempt to keep gays from marrying. You should give that one a look.

    To me harping on this being an issue of offensive language is misguided. This isn't about people being easily offended.

    The name and logo itself only exist in the first place because of a complete disregard for the idea of respecting Native American culture. This isn't intentional lampooning - it's unintentional driven by ignorance and a lack of empathy. All we're undoing is a wrong that never should have happened in the first place.
    Exactly. This is not about offense at all. This is about just being in the damn wrong.

  6. #66
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    I WILL quote your whole post because each line is terrific. Except about being a PA announcer for that awful school!

    It seems obvious that a nickname change is something that we as human beings can get over with relative ease, but you can probably speak to it better than most. When the nickname was up against the wall and everyone was fighting for every inch they could, I'm sure it seemed much more integral to your idenity than it does now that it's gone. After all, you're a fan of the school and the team and the players much, much more than you are of the cartoon on the front of the uniform.
    I used to wish that those who objected to the Fighting Sioux nickname would simply understand what was in MY heart (since I can't speak for everyone). I wished they understood that in MY heart I was miles from an offensive thought. It was a name that I thought had a cool ring to it. It was a reference to my team. Fighting Sioux didn't make me think of Native Americans at all... Just like the Twins don't make me think of Mary Kate and Ashley.

    I never thought about the origin of the name and I was never hypocritical enough to make the claim that we were honoring anybody. It was just a name that I liked for the team that I liked and supported. I just wished the debate would go away because it became painful.

    My wishes were impossible. The debate kept on... And on and on and on... And on and on some more. No ground was ever gained... No mind was ever changed. It wasn't going to stop.

    It would get so ugly that it broke my heart. I watched people who were supporters of the team cleave and cleave hard over it. I watched normally reasonable friends of mine act like changing the name would lead to the end of the world. I watched reasonable friends of mine act like their would be blood in the streets if the name remained. I watched a beautiful multi-million dollar hockey arena be presented as a location of bigotry by increasingly louder voices. I watched it twist and manifest into attacks on the the administration, coaches, players and professors. I watched the legislature get involved and produce specific North Dakota law over the issue and that was perhaps the stupidest thing of all!!!

    I have learned plenty from the experience. My advice to Washington, Cleveland, Atlanta, Kansas City or any team with a nickname in question.

    Just change it!!! It isn't worth it... Trust me... You feel so much better when the argument goes away. It's been very peaceful up here since the name was dropped and I love it.
    A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

  7. #67
    Senior Member Double-A
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    Now "intent" is irrelevant. Only outcome of feelings are relevant.

    Oh man, "intent" is irrelevant? Tell that to a prosecutor, my friend. It's a difference between manslaughter and Murder 1. As much as 50-60 years living in a cage. As a claustrophobe, I want to tell you that is NOT irrelevant. Wow!

  8. #68
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Why is it ok for Native Americans to be the only race to be used as sports mascots.?

    Why was it illegal in the US for Native Americans to practice their religion well into the 70's ,using the very same symbols and ceremonies used by sports franchises during the same period?

    Isn't this just a simple issue of respect and compassion? It's not a matter of political correctness, it's a matter of common sense.

    Sports teams that use names and caricatures of a race of people are ignorant and nothing more.

  9. #69
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    See "Incident at Oglala" if you are up and watch Netflix docs like I do . . .

  10. #70
    Senior Member Triple-A Don't Feed the Greed Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Just change it!!! It isn't worth it... Trust me... You feel so much better when the argument goes away. It's been very peaceful up here since the name was dropped and I love it.
    I support UND's decision, and I hope that Cleveland shelves Chief Wahoo for good. But here's an interesting wrinkle. UND has graduated more Native American doctors than any other university in America. A former coach at UND, and an infrequent dinner companion (I married into his family) has great concerns that this legacy of education and empowerment might lessen if UND is no longer so closely identified with the Dakota and Ojibwe cultures of Northern Minnesota and the Dakotas.

    It would be tragic if the present "peace" results in fewer opportunities for American Indian students.

    In this case, self-determination won, sort of. The Sioux tribes of North Dakota took varying positions, and met the issue with some noted ambivalence: Tribe quiet after N.D. drops nickname | NCAA.com

    Other teams, such as the Seminoles, have retained logos and mascots that nearby tribes have deemed to be culturally appropriate. I, for one, would appreciate such a representation of the American Indian warrior spirit in Cleveland, or Washington D.C., but that decision-making process would be perilous. Still, the outcome could potentially enhance and heal an American cultural identity, AND an American Indian identity.

    Still, in the short term, the Washington D.C. Football brand name, and the image of Chief Wahoo need to go.

  11. #71
    I'm not trying to feed the fire, but this is the old Redskins Fight Song. Obviously, some lines have been replaced, but still.

    Hail to the Redskins! Hail, victory!

    Braves on the warpath!

    Fight for Old D.C.!

    Scalp 'em, swamp 'um

    We will take 'um big score

    Read 'um, Weep 'um, touchdown

    We want heap more

    Fight on, fight on, till you have won

    Sons of Washington

    Rah! Rah! Rah!
    I'm not trying to brand anyone racist, I think that Riverbrian has had the most cogent comment in this thread. This debate is simply not worth it. With our long and sordid history with Native-Americans, it simply isn't possible to completely disconnect the Indians, Redskins, etc. team iconography from all of the terrible atrocities that have been committed.

    There's a reason why blackface is universally frowned upon now, even when people do it without any overt racist malice. Remember the idiots who dressed up in redface for the Indians home playoff game? I know that not everyone will agree with me, and that's fine. I just think that its something that is important to change.

  12. #72
    Senior Member Double-A scottz's Avatar
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    That song honors Native Americans.

    (I respect your collective intelligence enough to not have to put a "/sarc" tag after that for you to know that it is sarcasm.)

    (However, I don't respect individual intelligence enough to think that an individual might not get it, and therefore have typed the last two sentences.)

  13. #73
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Good god that fight song is mind blowing. Great find Lars!

  14. #74
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
    Final ancillary note: When people bring up slavery to bash America, Americans and white Americans I always wonder how much of their knowledge and perspective is from popular culture and myth, and how much is from an informed reading of world history.

    Virtually every color of people have been enslaved and held slaves themselves.
    Slavery is an economic institution that has been around for upwards of 4000 years.
    Slavery was not unique to America.
    What was unique about Slavery in America is that it only was legal for 89 years, then abolished.
    The first slave owner in America (the colonies) was black.
    American Indians practiced slavery before and after the white man arrived.
    Only ~4% of all slaves from Africa came to the U.S. They were sold by black Africans.
    In 1860, only ~10% of the white population in the South owned slaves.
    Less than 1.5% of whites in America owned slaves in 1860
    In New Orleans in 1860 3,000 free blacks owned slaves. That's 28% of the free blacks owned slaves there.

    So please stop with the hate America, whites should feel guilty and uber sensitive meme.

    Slavery is a horrible institution but ought not be used at every opportunity to further some social justice measure or to bash those who don't find some logos and nicknames offensive.

    To do so is facile, but lazy and factually wrong.
    I'm gagging on the irony of this post from a user whose signature reads "Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains."

    (and yes, I know it's a Rosseau quote)

  15. #75
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don't Feed the Greed Guy View Post
    I support UND's decision, and I hope that Cleveland shelves Chief Wahoo for good. But here's an interesting wrinkle. UND has graduated more Native American doctors than any other university in America. A former coach at UND, and an infrequent dinner companion (I married into his family) has great concerns that this legacy of education and empowerment might lessen if UND is no longer so closely identified with the Dakota and Ojibwe cultures of Northern Minnesota and the Dakotas.

    It would be tragic if the present "peace" results in fewer opportunities for American Indian students.

    In this case, self-determination won, sort of. The Sioux tribes of North Dakota took varying positions, and met the issue with some noted ambivalence: Tribe quiet after N.D. drops nickname | NCAA.com

    Other teams, such as the Seminoles, have retained logos and mascots that nearby tribes have deemed to be culturally appropriate. I, for one, would appreciate such a representation of the American Indian warrior spirit in Cleveland, or Washington D.C., but that decision-making process would be perilous. Still, the outcome could potentially enhance and heal an American cultural identity, AND an American Indian identity.

    Still, in the short term, the Washington D.C. Football brand name, and the image of Chief Wahoo need to go.
    Decisions are often made by those who show up. The Politics of this issue are mind boggling.

    Let's see... You have the NCAA making a declaration announcing punitive sanctions. The only out they gave was to secure support from the tribes themselves.

    You have a Standing Rock Council who refused to support the name and a Spirit Lake Council who refused to support retiring the name.

    Without Support from Standing Rock... UND can't meet the NCAA demands and the State Board of Higher Education supports UND in the decision to retire the name. Which causes Spirit Lake to issue a lawsuit against the NCAA to keep the name.

    On top of that... it causes state lawmakers to create a state law to force UND to keep the name based on vocal minority support.

    A State law that had to be repealed by Majority Vote. In it's place is a 3 year cooling off period that expires in 2015. During this time... The University can't choose a new nickname. The hope is that during this 3 year period... The University will be able to reach an agreement with Standing Rock for support which will only keep the discussion front and center because the vocal minority will still be there.

    All the While... The Majority of North Dakotans 66% want the name changed because they are tired of the argument.

    So what do you have... You have a minority of people against the name squared off against a minority who fiercely wanted to keep the name.

    The Majority of the actual Minority... The Tribes themselves... are apathetic to the tune of 8% actually voted... felt strongly enough to register an opinion and it the result was pretty close to 50-50.

    As for what UND has done for Native Americans... They've done a lot and it's the right thing to do. However... the politics of that... I can only imagine. It's quite possible that the Tribes could use the nickname issue and hold it over UND to increase what has already been given. That's just a guess on my part. It's only my opinion... However... Things like that go on behind closed doors all the time. This is what we got last year... What do we get this year.

    It's easy to see why UND wants to move on. It's much harder to see why they are not allowed to.
    A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

  16. #76
    Senior Member Triple-A Don't Feed the Greed Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Decisions are often made by those who show up. The Politics of this issue are mind boggling.


    A State law that had to be repealed by Majority Vote. In it's place is a 3 year cooling off period that expires in 2015. During this time... The University can't choose a new nickname. The hope is that during this 3 year period... The University will be able to reach an agreement with Standing Rock for support which will only keep the discussion front and center because the vocal minority will still be there.


    The Majority of the actual Minority... The Tribes themselves... are apathetic to the tune of 8% actually voted... felt strongly enough to register an opinion and it the result was pretty close to 50-50.

    It's easy to see why UND wants to move on. It's much harder to see why they are not allowed to.
    It will be interesting to see what the "cooling off period" will bring. "Fighting Sioux" seems to carry a greater level of acceptance than Washington D.C. name/logo, and Chief Wahoo's caricature.

    My hope would be a name/logo that the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe and the Spirit Lake Tribe can embrace. Something more honorable than "Flickertails." Arriving at that name/logo would require a level of moral deliberation that might exceed the imagination and stamina of everyone involved.

    What would you like to see happen with the name/logo at UND? I think we're both in agreement on what should happen to Chief Wahoo.

  17. #77
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    The only interesting part here, to me, is "what should we do about any offensive thing".....

    1. There really is no upside to keeping the names. Within a couple of years, people will have moved on. Since the names are clearly offensive to people, not based on something those people chose to be but who they are born, there is cost to keeping the name. Simple logic would say to change the name.

    2. Now, the one interesting question was "should we "ban" anything offensive". I'd say no. Porn offends some. Gay marriage offends some. The difference, to me, is that those offenses are about choosing....and this is a nuance. People choose to have a belief that gay marriage or porn is wrong, they don't choose their race. To me, offensive items based on non-choice offense, are good candidates for elimination. To me, offensive items based on choice, are not good candidates for elimination.

    3. That is kind of nuanced.....so it might raise a bunch of comments, that are more likely to be about being pedantic than are likely to be about being nuanced.

    4. There is no intrinsic value in the offensive names. Large sets of people hate them. Just move on. It hurts no one to change the name (unlike banning gay marraige). Just move on.

    5. For the most part, I say or type Atlanta or Cleveland or Washington when referring to those teams. I do slip up, but I do try hard.
    Lighten up Francis....

  18. #78
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    The only interesting part here, to me, is "what should we do about any offensive thing".....

    1. There really is no upside to keeping the names. Within a couple of years, people will have moved on. Since the names are clearly offensive to people, not based on something those people chose to be but who they are born, there is cost to keeping the name. Simple logic would say to change the name.

    2. Now, the one interesting question was "should we "ban" anything offensive". I'd say no. Porn offends some. Gay marriage offends some. The difference, to me, is that those offenses are about choosing....and this is a nuance. People choose to have a belief that gay marriage or porn is wrong, they don't choose their race. To me, offensive items based on non-choice offense, are good candidates for elimination. To me, offensive items based on choice, are not good candidates for elimination.
    1. Agreed.

    2. Nothing should be banned. If Washington wants to keep their name, so be it. Nothing should force them to change it... On the other hand, I will encourage those who wish to protest the name endlessly and make the owner's life a non-stop PR disaster.

    Stuff like this should be handled by conscience and societal shift, not government interference.

  19. #79
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    Sorry, banned was a bad word......I generally agree with you on this Brock, as you can imagine.

    Look, if the only argument for keeping something around that is offensive is "it's always been that way" or something like that, just move on already. that's not a good reason.
    Lighten up Francis....

  20. #80
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don't Feed the Greed Guy View Post
    It will be interesting to see what the "cooling off period" will bring. "Fighting Sioux" seems to carry a greater level of acceptance than Washington D.C. name/logo, and Chief Wahoo's caricature.

    My hope would be a name/logo that the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe and the Spirit Lake Tribe can embrace. Something more honorable than "Flickertails." Arriving at that name/logo would require a level of moral deliberation that might exceed the imagination and stamina of everyone involved.

    What would you like to see happen with the name/logo at UND? I think we're both in agreement on what should happen to Chief Wahoo.
    The cooling off period has been exactly that... Things have Cooled off and I'm enjoying the momentary break from the heat. I'm well aware of the dark cloud that is off in the distance and coming this way.

    It's going to start up all over again in 2015 and I dread it. I realize once the engine restarts on this thing that history could repeat itself. Some shortsighted individual could re-introduce legislation that continues to hamstring the University again. The minority against the minority on behalf of a minority that doesn't seem to care as a majority of themselves.

    What would I like to see happen? Keeping in mind that I like the Fighting Sioux nickname... I want the name changed yesterday and I don't want the name subjected to permission from anyone. I don't want an agreement with Standing Rock. Because agreements expire and here we go again.

    I'm hopeful it's a name I like but I really don't care. It matters not if the name is selected by a committee of name change experts. It matters not if the name is selected by the President or A.D. alone. It matters not if the name is selected by 82 year old Gladys Biltmeyer who was drawn from a hat in a contest sponsored by Buffalo Wild Wings... Even if Gladys wants to change the name of the team to the Dandelions... It matters not.

    The only thing that matters is that the debate ends so healing and the future can begin. 70 years from now... No one is going to care. Unless we are still debating it 70 years from now.

    I honestly see both sides of the issue... It can be fun to debate for a day but after a week of debate and no progress... That fun goes away.

    After decades of debate and no progress... It's like elevator doors unable to close because your head is in the way. The doors bounce off your head again and again and again and again. The elevator won't move until the doors close. You know the doors won't close... You are stuck in the middle. Bang... Open... Bang... Open... Bang... Open... Bang.

    No offense to anyone intended... But to anyone who has a passionate view of this issue. I see what you are saying... But... I can't help but look at you a little funny. I see what the passion has brought forth.

    To the Cleveland Indians... Washington Redskins... Kansas City Chiefs... Atlanta Braves... Just change it now... Otherwise you are delaying the inevitable... Letting wounds fester and get worse... You will have to change it eventually might as well do it now.

    And 70 years from now... It won't matter... The people of Cleveland will buy merchandise and cheer for the Cleveland Dandelions. Keeping the name is simply a case of the juice not being worth the squeeze.
    A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

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