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Thread: The Curse of the Big Papi?

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Not really waiting for anything, just noting another thing it would be interesting to discuss with TR.

    I think I know what you are getting at, though: this isn't an organization with many regrets, as long as they do things "their way."
    I very much appreciate the research, though I'll admit I'm still confused by the release in terms of the actual transaction. Was it a non-tender situation? I thought it was a release after he passed through waivers?

    I agree it would be interesting to hear his own reflection on that.
    Last edited by Alex; 11-04-2013 at 06:37 PM.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashburyjohn View Post
    Moderator's note: Guys. A slippery slope is being descended these last few posts, each time the words are about each other rather than the points you're trying to make. Find better ways to state your positions - it's a matter of fine-tuning.
    My apologies. I could have used a better word than petty, though I still think it's fair to use "convoluted" when we're talking about some very hypothetical and dependent situations that include a lot of if-then (trade value, extensions) 10 years in the past.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Not really waiting for anything, just noting another thing it would be interesting to discuss with TR.

    I think I know what you are getting at, though: this isn't an organization with many regrets, as long as they do things "their way."
    Well, they do consider themselves the model organization that every other organization tries to emulate.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    I very much appreciate the research, though I'll admit I'm still confused by the release in terms of the actual transaction. Was it a non-tender situation? I thought it was a release after he passed through waivers?
    I guess they were going to non-tender him, but they wanted the 40-man roster spot a few days before the nontender deadline, so they simply released him (which required he pass through release waivers first).

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Petty and convoluted, not contrived. Petty because it was almost a decade ago and everyone had a chance at him. Convoluted because we don't really know how much longer the Twins would have had him anyway and the overall impact it actually had on the team. Sure we can put forth theories of contracts, etc..but none of that means anything as there's too much time between then and now to know how it all would have played out.


    That's the point I'm trying to make: nothing wrong with being upset about it, but let's keep it in perspective.

    As for the first paragraph, you're saying I acknowledged much more than I did I my post, putting a ton of words in my mouth, which was simply about flipping players at the end of their contracts.
    Contrived or convoluted, either way, in the context of my usages of the words, they were synonymous, and were used condemnatorily on your part towards attacking someone, somehow, for supposedlly coming up with a past-due sour-grapes-gripe-and-grouse, and supposedly for presenting a weak and flimsy case against how TR (mis)-handled the Ortiz affair. The evidence is that quite the opposite was the case. It was apparent to some of us at the time that Ortiz was a TK and Gardy whipping boy, and history has certainly borne it out that of that emergening group, he had the best potential leadership qualities and key-production propsects, therefore, this wasn't contrived or convoluted second-guessing, this was a gaffe of epic proprotions.

    You can provide grist for the real "reason" for the move if you wish- a) TR blinded by the roster and payroll processes and unable to see the forest for the trees, b) outright penny-pinching, cc) playing favorites for less tangible reasons than potential production value, ie, absurdly (unjustifiably) deeming Twins Way LeCroy as Ortiz's equivalent value player, d) a mollification of field level coaches by getting rid of a "difficult" player....etc....But none of this ever has, or ever will wash, and misses the greater point.....this was, and is, a justifiable indictment of a too-insular organization that is unable or unwilling to learn from past mistakes... (As others have noted, sadly, I doubt that for one moment that they have ever regarded non-tendering and/or releasing Ortiz as a "mistake").

    Ortiz's public comments concerning how he was coached as a Twin, followed by numerous other ex-Twins before and since, only add to the pile of evidence in the matter. (And this does cause obvious concern with the next wave soon upon us, especially the aleady-identified strong personalities like Sano, Berrios, Gonsalves and Rosario).

  6. #86
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    Jokin,

    You did see my apology, right? As I didn't mean to come off as severe as you apparently thought, and I chose the word convoluted carefully as the discussion was branching into, IMO, a lot of unknown hypotheticals about long term contracts and trade results. It was my stance that at the time, they weren't doing/getting much of either for the players listed. I'll agree that's a problem within the organization but it isn't/wouldn't have been unique to Ortiz's had he stayed with the Twins.

    I don't disagree with anything you said about the Twins or even disagree that the Ortiz handling was a mistake. My opinion is that while by itself it may have been a horrible one it doesn't go as far as franchise ruining or killing, as was mentioned earlier. But, I'd agree that it is symptomatic of some poor organizational practices.
    Last edited by Alex; 11-05-2013 at 12:24 AM.

  7. #87
    Maybe not franchise ruining, but their playoff appearances from 2003-2006 could have turned out much differently.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marta Shearing View Post
    Maybe not franchise ruining, but their playoff appearances from 2003-2006 could have turned out much differently.
    Possibly, yes.

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