Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 59

Thread: "Dirty Wars"

  1. #21
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
    Posts
    3,993
    Like
    4
    Liked 124 Times in 90 Posts
    Blog Entries
    67
    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    20 years ago was the first attempt at bombing the world trade center. They did not go away. Current actions have not exterminated them, but it does more than doing nothing.
    And when do you think Western meddling began!? How about the West (UK, in particular) drawing ridiculous borders after the fall of the Ottoman Empire? How about the U.S. overthrowing a democratically elected leader of Iran in 1954. Lord, even "Argo" gave a brief but informative history lesson about that. How about radicalizing fundies all over the region, but particularly in Afghanistan in the 80s?

    Meanwhile, we do nothing but support a truly savage Saudi government which is quite possibly on a par with the Taliban in terms of brutality. Now . . . I wonder why??

  2. #22
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
    Posts
    3,993
    Like
    4
    Liked 124 Times in 90 Posts
    Blog Entries
    67
    How many terrorists have been "exterminated" in the War on Terror, and how many innocent people have been "exterminated"? Get those answers and see how you deal with them.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    621
    Like
    12
    Liked 37 Times in 31 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    How many terrorists have been "exterminated" in the War on Terror, and how many innocent people have been "exterminated"? Get those answers and see how you deal with them.
    US support of the Taliban followed the Muslim decree of the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
    Innocent people killed by the US. Far less than what was killed by the Taliban as previously cited.
    AL Awlaki was called moderate by the Times and other news organizations. By actions and preachings, he was not.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    621
    Like
    12
    Liked 37 Times in 31 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Oh, they surely hate us for being Christian, Western, and other things... But they're not going to go out of their way to attack someone half a world away that isn't meddling in their daily lives. They'll find a closer, more localized target to focus on.

    It sounds cruel but I don't see the Middle East being "fixed". The vocal part of the population practices a 14th century religion and has no motivation to change, as it helps them control the rest of the population, which (mostly) goes along with the craziness from that vocal minority.

    So, let 'em have their craziness. Focus on preventing the nutjobs from leaving the area, infecting other regions, and call it a day.

    Some problems and people just aren't worth the effort. Take some of that money and work with Africa instead. At least there we'll have a chance to fix a problem that isn't steeped in two millennia of ideological "hate your neighbor".
    Embassies in Africa and Peru were a half world away and they still went aftr them. But you are right about you can't fix the hate your neighbor thing. See the Shia-Sunni bloodshed over the years.
    A good deal of the problems in Africa and the Middle East comes from Britain in that when they left the lines drawn as boundries had little to do with the actual people living there.

  5. #25
    Senior Member MVP
    Posts
    5,713
    Like
    1,159
    Liked 564 Times in 369 Posts
    This is complex, imo.

    On the one hand, how can any caring people turn their head and ignore genocide and other awful actions, and pull back to a smaller set of the world. Borders are fake lines we have imposed on humanity, and I feel there is a sense of duty to help people, no matter where or who they are.

    OTOH, you can't fix everything, and indeed, trying to fix other peoples' problems often is not effective in the long run. Also, given our current interest in not paying taxes because they are somehow evil, we as a people need to make some difficult decisions. We cannot afford to fix everything.

    So, should we fix the worst parts, or the parts we can most likely fix? Should we ignore people in other parts of the world, and only work on fixing the US?

    I just don't think flip answers (which I specialize in) capture the difficulty and nuance of these decisions. I've spent some 40 years trying to answer these questions, and still don't know the answers.
    Lighten up Francis....

  6. #26
    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
    Posts
    1,742
    Like
    58
    Liked 105 Times in 51 Posts
    1. We should be clear about what "meddling" means. Influence by use of money, other material gain, political support, military use et cetera? Since this word is being used here to argue that we are creating terrorists because we've "meddled," it seems important to know what you all mean. Why?

    2. Because we've exerted (meddled) influence in almost every corner of the world and I don't believe every corner of the world has put anything like a "fatwa" for meddling in their zones of influence in the past.

    3. Therefore, while it may be a contributing cause, I don't think "meddling" can be shown to be the primary cause for the creation of terrorism.

    4. The more likely causes are ignorance perpetuated by lack of education, religious and culturally fixed view about the West (which they find obscene and encroaching on their religious/cultural values), and the fact the violence and conquest is how their religion began and spread.

    5. Just for illustration, and do correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we Vietnam was meddled with a great deal in their history -- China was always their greatest foe, then the French came, then Soviet influence, then The USA came. Yet, we have normalized relations with all of Vietnam and they are possibly our greatest ally in the region even after so much carpet bombing, money, US military presence et cetera. We've "meddled" plenty there, yet somehow it only took a couple decades after this conflict to normalize relations throughout.

    Also, I would guess that the culture and religious views of SE Asia are/were just as foreign as those of the Middle East and central Asia.

    I think this points to something other than "meddling" as the sole or primary cause of terrorism exported from that region.
    Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

  7. #27
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
    Posts
    3,993
    Like
    4
    Liked 124 Times in 90 Posts
    Blog Entries
    67
    A couple good posts that require more thought for a response at the moment . . .

  8. #28
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
    Posts
    3,633
    Like
    924
    Liked 1,283 Times in 687 Posts
    [QUOTE=Ultima Ratio;176558]1.
    2. Because we've exerted (meddled) influence in almost every corner of the world and I don't believe every corner of the world has put anything like a "fatwa" for meddling in their zones of influence in the past
    Maybe not in a religious sense (considering that's what fatwas are based on) but I'm quite sure other regions have had opinions on foreign "meddling" Not sure what your definition of a fatwa is.

    3. Therefore, while it may be a contributing cause, I don't think "meddling" can be shown to be the primary cause for the creation of terrorism


    4. The more likely causes are ignorance perpetuated by lack of education, religious and culturally fixed view about the West (which they find obscene and encroaching on their religious/cultural values), and the fact the violence and conquest is how their religion began and spread.
    Are you talking about the terrorists or the citizenry? The vast majority of the citizenry do not have any negative fixed views about the West or other religion.
    Muslim conquests had nothing to do with forcing people to convert to Islam, they were territorial based, no different than the Christian Conquests. Islam being spread by the sword is a tired myth.

    5. Just for illustration, and do correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we Vietnam was meddled with a great deal in their history -- China was always their greatest foe, then the French came, then Soviet influence, then The USA came. Yet, we have normalized relations with all of Vietnam and they are possibly our greatest ally in the region even after so much carpet bombing, money, US military presence et cetera. We've "meddled" plenty there, yet somehow it only took a couple decades after this conflict to normalize relations throughout.

    Also, I would guess that the culture and religious views of SE Asia are/were just as foreign as those of the Middle East and central Asia
    Vietnam never had its Israel, a bit if an extenuating factor don't you think? Last time I checked nobody voted to give part of Vietnam to someone else without asking. Whether that viewpoint is right or wrong is irrelevent, it's a factor.

    I think this points to something other than "meddling" as the sole or primary cause of terrorism exported from that region.
    Last edited by twinsnorth49; 11-06-2013 at 08:05 PM.

  9. #29
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
    Posts
    3,993
    Like
    4
    Liked 124 Times in 90 Posts
    Blog Entries
    67
    Well that's a damn good response twinsnorth49. There's a lot to be said here.

    Can you imagine . . . I used to try to have these kinds of conversations on . . . Hannity.com???

  10. #30
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
    Posts
    3,993
    Like
    4
    Liked 124 Times in 90 Posts
    Blog Entries
    67
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    This is complex, imo.

    On the one hand, how can any caring people turn their head and ignore genocide and other awful actions, and pull back to a smaller set of the world. Borders are fake lines we have imposed on humanity, and I feel there is a sense of duty to help people, no matter where or who they are.

    OTOH, you can't fix everything, and indeed, trying to fix other peoples' problems often is not effective in the long run. Also, given our current interest in not paying taxes because they are somehow evil, we as a people need to make some difficult decisions. We cannot afford to fix everything.

    So, should we fix the worst parts, or the parts we can most likely fix? Should we ignore people in other parts of the world, and only work on fixing the US?

    I just don't think flip answers (which I specialize in) capture the difficulty and nuance of these decisions. I've spent some 40 years trying to answer these questions, and still don't know the answers.
    There is an absolute need to fix the world, including ourselves. There MUST be engagement and perhaps strong diplomacy to get barbaric regimes to give up.

    There is no clear answer, however, as to how to help. Waging war is clearly not a viable answer as has been demonstrated.

  11. #31
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
    Posts
    3,993
    Like
    4
    Liked 124 Times in 90 Posts
    Blog Entries
    67
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
    1. We should be clear about what "meddling" means. Influence by use of money, other material gain, political support, military use et cetera? Since this word is being used here to argue that we are creating terrorists because we've "meddled," it seems important to know what you all mean. Why?

    2. Because we've exerted (meddled) influence in almost every corner of the world and I don't believe every corner of the world has put anything like a "fatwa" for meddling in their zones of influence in the past.

    3. Therefore, while it may be a contributing cause, I don't think "meddling" can be shown to be the primary cause for the creation of terrorism.

    4. The more likely causes are ignorance perpetuated by lack of education, religious and culturally fixed view about the West (which they find obscene and encroaching on their religious/cultural values), and the fact the violence and conquest is how their religion began and spread.

    5. Just for illustration, and do correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we Vietnam was meddled with a great deal in their history -- China was always their greatest foe, then the French came, then Soviet influence, then The USA came. Yet, we have normalized relations with all of Vietnam and they are possibly our greatest ally in the region even after so much carpet bombing, money, US military presence et cetera. We've "meddled" plenty there, yet somehow it only took a couple decades after this conflict to normalize relations throughout.

    Also, I would guess that the culture and religious views of SE Asia are/were just as foreign as those of the Middle East and central Asia.

    I think this points to something other than "meddling" as the sole or primary cause of terrorism exported from that region.
    I am not going to say that such interference, occupation, and invasion/occupation is the primary problem. The primary problem involves a middle ages, pre-printing press level of knowledge about the world. People do not know what is going on in the very populations being massacred. But meddling does not solve any problems. Overthrow the democratically elected leader to institute a monster. And then that monster gained more power!?

    OBL said, clearly, that U.S. occupation of Saudi Arabia, and the support of American forces in the ensuing war against Saddam was enough to radicalize muslims around the world.

  12. #32
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
    Posts
    3,993
    Like
    4
    Liked 124 Times in 90 Posts
    Blog Entries
    67
    Winning the war on terror *is not the objective* of the war on terror. Servicemen and servicewomen should begin to understand this. Exacerbate the problem of terrorism--that is the chief objective. Full stop.

    The answer to the problem is a slow answer. Killing people is the quick answer and it is no answer at all. The real answer involves an end goal . . . equality for women. Once that is had, they can develop a culture with much less repression of sexuality.

  13. #33
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
    Posts
    3,993
    Like
    4
    Liked 124 Times in 90 Posts
    Blog Entries
    67
    Also:

    1. Are we all aware, again, of the direct involvement of the overthrowing on a democratically elected Iranian leader and the subsequent radicalization of the Iranian population after the Shah was clearly a damned monster to the Iranians?

    2. The "enemy of my enemy" is a bogus way to conduct a foreign policy. Are people really not aware, here, of the footage of Rumsfeld and Saddam shaking hands in 1983?

    3. Supporting both sides in a war is not good policy, right? Yet, this is the history of U.S. involvement in Iran-Iraq.

    4. The United States encouraged radical Islam when it deemed necessary in Afghanistan in the 1980s and Bosnia in the 1990s.

    5. The United States props up an Israeli government that is wildly barbaric to Palestinians in the region.

    6. The support of the Saudi regime only exacerbates the situation. And it is only because of oil that we blind-eye this monstrous regime.

  14. #34
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
    Posts
    4,839
    Like
    177
    Liked 664 Times in 375 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    5. The United States props up an Israeli government that is wildly barbaric to Palestinians in the region..
    You really killed an otherwise good post with this baffling line. And that's coming from someone more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause than most. This is just wrong and many other adjectives I'll leave unsaid.

  15. #35
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    621
    Like
    12
    Liked 37 Times in 31 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Winning the war on terror *is not the objective* of the war on terror. Servicemen and servicewomen should begin to understand this. Exacerbate the problem of terrorism--that is the chief objective. Full stop.

    The answer to the problem is a slow answer. Killing people is the quick answer and it is no answer at all. The real answer involves an end goal . . . equality for women. Once that is had, they can develop a culture with much less repression of sexuality.
    Considering the core of the fundamentalist religion, male dominance and kill those that are different than me, have been in place for a millennium your real answer for an end game ought to be an interesting one

    If every form of government that was brutal to some portion of the population was wiped out by a magic wand there would be very few governments left. Governments removed were as brutal to others as the governments that replaced them

  16. #36
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
    Posts
    3,993
    Like
    4
    Liked 124 Times in 90 Posts
    Blog Entries
    67
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    You really killed an otherwise good post with this baffling line. And that's coming from someone more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause than most. This is just wrong and many other adjectives I'll leave unsaid.
    Israelis and Palestinians Killed since 9/29/2000

    http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/...25734800500272

    Not sure what is really that baffling.
    Last edited by Shane Wahl; 11-08-2013 at 04:33 PM.

  17. #37
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
    Posts
    3,993
    Like
    4
    Liked 124 Times in 90 Posts
    Blog Entries
    67
    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    Considering the core of the fundamentalist religion, male dominance and kill those that are different than me, have been in place for a millennium your real answer for an end game ought to be an interesting one

    If every form of government that was brutal to some portion of the population was wiped out by a magic wand there would be very few governments left. Governments removed were as brutal to others as the governments that replaced them
    So we wage these wars to replace one brutal government with another. Sounds like an utter waste of time, money, and lives.

    What got the West out of the dark ages, and how does it happen again for these societies?

  18. #38
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    621
    Like
    12
    Liked 37 Times in 31 Posts
    The Palestinaian and Israel have gone on since long before 2000

  19. #39
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
    Posts
    4,839
    Like
    177
    Liked 664 Times in 375 Posts
    So they've killed more....how does that make them "barbaric"? This sounds like a lefty talking points on steroids.

    Israel has done plenty of wrong, no doubt about it. They've also got zero chance of diplomatic solutions because they're surrounded by zealots with no interest in peace. So yeah, their better military is better at killing their enemies than the motley bunch that insists they die.

    But yeesh, if Israel is barbaric, Obama makes Ghengis Kahn look like a choir boy.

  20. #40
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    621
    Like
    12
    Liked 37 Times in 31 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    So we wage these wars to replace one brutal government with another. Sounds like an utter waste of time, money, and lives.

    What got the West out of the dark ages, and how does it happen again for these societies?
    Point 1. I guess you would have to say that Bush, unlike most of the middle east coups, couldn't find any way to have someone else do the fighting. If they would have armed the Kurds they could have probably avoided a lot of maimed Americans in Iraq. Then Turkey would be worried because they have a large Kurdish population.

    2. What brought the West out the dark ages? The ability to subjugate other populations. How long have women been equals in the West. Has not happened yet.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
©2014 TwinsCentric, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Interested in advertising with Twins Daily? Click here.