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Thread: "Dirty Wars"

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    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    "Dirty Wars"

    Excellent documentary, exposing the real nature of Obama's continued "war of terror" on human beings around the world.

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    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    I'll just say it: Obama has gotten off so easy on this. Bush was called and accused of some pretty terrible things by the left. All Obama has done is put Bush's policies on steroids and the guy all but gets a pass.

    Integrity of principle knows no party in this country.

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    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    I'll just say it: Obama has gotten off so easy on this. Bush was called and accused of some pretty terrible things by the left. All Obama has done is put Bush's policies on steroids and the guy all but gets a pass.

    Integrity of principle knows no party in this country.
    Agreed. The only guy I see calling out Obama on this is a freakin' comedian (John Stewart).

    This single issue alone has taken me from "generally, kinda positive" on Obama to "he's barely any ****ing better than the last guy".

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    Agree with Brock, I had (naive) hopes Obama would be different. But he's not. Having worked out there, and even here in MN, in politics and government, I should have known better. But I refuse to give up hope completely. Maybe one of the next leaders will be different. Maybe.
    Lighten up Francis....

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    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    It in many ways is worse than Bush (not all ways, but many ways). The targeted assassinations sound "nice" because of the scope of these attacks (whether by drone or special operations on the ground), but it exacerbates secrecy, lawlessness, and the losing war for "hearts and minds."

    Even the case of Anwar al-Awlaki is not nearly straight forward at all (other than the obvious killing an American citizen without any due process). And when they later droned his 16-year-old son (also, of course, an AMERICAN CITIZEN) for no apparent reason . . . well there's little to be said about the commission of such evil.

    The main point from the documentary is really not about these individual cases, but how the "kill lists" have gone from a few people to that Iraq deck of cards to now thousands at a time . . . and one list after another is indicative of the real motivation for waging a war on terror. It's never to win it, but to always keep it going by creating more enemies to keep killing. And somehow Americans just accepted never-ending war as American foreign policy. It's the war on drugs on a larger scale.

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    The alternative to the "dirty war"is what? Let the people be so they can continue in their quest to kill anyone who appears friendly to the United States?

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    Head Moderator All-Star glunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    The alternative to the "dirty war"is what? Let the people be so they can continue in their quest to kill anyone who appears friendly to the United States?
    Maybe the alternative is to make a greater effort to find peaceful solutions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by glunn View Post
    Maybe the alternative is to make a greater effort to find peaceful solutions?
    Honorable wish. The people of Afghanistan who were not Taliban would have liked that starting in 1996

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    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    Honorable wish. The people of Afghanistan who were not Taliban would have liked that starting in 1996
    Try 1838......or 1979 for more recent history. Really at the end of the day, the Afghans have never really known peace for very long.

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    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    I'm ok with aggressive tactics personally, it's the pathetic hypocrisy of it among the parties that are supposed to be checking each other.

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    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    The alternative to the "dirty war"is what? Let the people be so they can continue in their quest to kill anyone who appears friendly to the United States?
    Who are "the people" and why are so many innocent people slaughtered as well. Al-Awlaki is a perfect example of someone radicalized out of being a moderate cleric because of the brutality of American wars.

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    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Maybe having a foreign policy that doesn't create more terrorists should be a goal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Who are "the people" and why are so many innocent people slaughtered as well. Al-Awlaki is a perfect example of someone radicalized out of being a moderate cleric because of the brutality of American wars.
    The list of atrocities committed by the Taliban to women, children, and anyone who is not one of them is long. Two examples.
    How the Taliban slaughtered thousands of people
    Minority Afghans tell Taliban atrocities - chicagotribune.com

    Al-Awlaki was nowhere to be found for the Muslim people of those communities. No statements condemning the slaughter. To label him a moderate is (I can't think of a statement or word that isn't banned by TD).

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    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Maybe having a foreign policy that doesn't create more terrorists should be a goal.
    This sounds like a good start. The best way to do that is to leave them to settle their problems themselves. After awhile, it becomes hard to rally the troops against an invisible enemy half a world away that doesn't give a damn what you're doing.

    The "they hate us for who we are" argument doesn't really fly with me; they hate us because of what we've done in the region. By simply poking our nose around, we give fundamentalist leaders a nice, juicy target for which to place all of their peoples' blame. It's a time-tested tradition; if live sucks for your people but you don't want to actually give them any power or self-determination, blame somebody else who happens to be nearby. It deflects blame from the leaders and focuses the proletariate toward an outside enemy, which is a bloody good distraction from their daily misery.

    After awhile, you have to stop playing World Police and just let people blow each other up for awhile and stay the hell out of it. These divisions are thousands of years old, based on deep-seeded hatred of the other's ideology. The big ol' super-powered US of A ain't gonna do jack to fix how the people view one another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    This sounds like a good start. The best way to do that is to leave them to settle their problems themselves. After awhile, it becomes hard to rally the troops against an invisible enemy half a world away that doesn't give a damn what you're doing.

    The "they hate us for who we are" argument doesn't really fly with me; they hate us because of what we've done in the region. By simply poking our nose around, we give fundamentalist leaders a nice, juicy target for which to place all of their peoples' blame. It's a time-tested tradition; if live sucks for your people but you don't want to actually give them any power or self-determination, blame somebody else who happens to be nearby. It deflects blame from the leaders and focuses the proletariate toward an outside enemy, which is a bloody good distraction from their daily misery.

    After awhile, you have to stop playing World Police and just let people blow each other up for awhile and stay the hell out of it. These divisions are thousands of years old, based on deep-seeded hatred of the other's ideology. The big ol' super-powered US of A ain't gonna do jack to fix how the people view one another.
    Imagined injustice will work fine to promote hatred. The fundamentalist will always hate what is not them. The U.S . fits the bill whether or not they are meddling in any countries affairs.

  16. #16
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    Imagined injustice will work fine to promote hatred. The fundamentalist will always hate what is not them. The U.S . fits the bill whether or not they are meddling in any countries affairs.
    I tend to agree with you, but there is no doubt our meddling also exacerbates the problem significantly as well. I think it's a bit silly to say that they only hate us because of our actions, they hate us for religious, cultural, and historical reasons.

    But some of our policies and actions have no doubt put gas on the fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    I tend to agree with you, but there is no doubt our meddling also exacerbates the problem significantly as well. I think it's a bit silly to say that they only hate us because of our actions, they hate us for religious, cultural, and historical reasons.

    But some of our policies and actions have no doubt put gas on the fire.
    20 years ago was the first attempt at bombing the world trade center. They did not go away. Current actions have not exterminated them, but it does more than doing nothing.

  18. #18
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    I tend to agree with you, but there is no doubt our meddling also exacerbates the problem significantly as well. I think it's a bit silly to say that they only hate us because of our actions, they hate us for religious, cultural, and historical reasons.

    But some of our policies and actions have no doubt put gas on the fire.
    Oh, they surely hate us for being Christian, Western, and other things... But they're not going to go out of their way to attack someone half a world away that isn't meddling in their daily lives. They'll find a closer, more localized target to focus on.

    It sounds cruel but I don't see the Middle East being "fixed". The vocal part of the population practices a 14th century religion and has no motivation to change, as it helps them control the rest of the population, which (mostly) goes along with the craziness from that vocal minority.

    So, let 'em have their craziness. Focus on preventing the nutjobs from leaving the area, infecting other regions, and call it a day.

    Some problems and people just aren't worth the effort. Take some of that money and work with Africa instead. At least there we'll have a chance to fix a problem that isn't steeped in two millennia of ideological "hate your neighbor".

  19. #19
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Oh, they surely hate us for being Christian, Western, and other things... But they're not going to go out of their way to attack someone half a world away that isn't meddling in their daily lives. They'll find a closer, more localized target to focus on.
    They've had both though. I don't disagree with you that "fixing" that region seems almost impossible, but I disagree that they'll get distracted with local concerns. The big, bad, oppressive super-power is far more galvanizing than petty local difference. Power-grabbers will always recognize that.

    There is hope for many portions of Africa, that's very true. But I worry even there that you'll end up supporting the wrong kinds of people and end up creating similar situations there. Look how much money that gets funneled there already that goes into everything but clean water and basic societal foundations in place of tanks and guns.

    But to your larger point - part of why I'm ok with aggressive approaches in both regions is because I think there is little hope, but I do think we should be less visible in those regions. We have the technology to be aggressive without being a constant reminder to people that we're around.

  20. #20
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    The list of atrocities committed by the Taliban to women, children, and anyone who is not one of them is long. Two examples.
    How the Taliban slaughtered thousands of people
    Minority Afghans tell Taliban atrocities - chicagotribune.com

    Al-Awlaki was nowhere to be found for the Muslim people of those communities. No statements condemning the slaughter. To label him a moderate is (I can't think of a statement or word that isn't banned by TD).
    Weird about that continued U.S. support of the Taliban right up into 2001, then, huh.

    Al-Awlaki was sought out in American after 9/11 as a moderate voice!

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