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Thread: Realistic SP for Twins (let's be real)

  1. #21
    1A & 1B Nolasco or Feldman - Be very agressive on a 3 yr deal or stretch to 4 if absolutely necessary. Then sign Kazmir to a 2 year deal. Maybe even 3 if our scouts are confident he is back. Then, sign Johnson to a one year deal at 7M + all boat load of incentives that would allow him to make another 8-10M if he pitched like he has in the past. Johan to a minor leauge deal. If they all pan out and Meyer is knocking at the door we can find a solution to that enviable problem.

    This should still leave enough money for Corey Hart.

    Might help the deal to have a clause in Johnson's contract that he recieves additional salary if he is traded. That would net a nice prospect if he bounced back.
    Last edited by Major Leauge Ready; 11-10-2013 at 06:20 PM.

  2. #22
    Senior Member All-Star Bark's Lounge's Avatar
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    This may sound negative, but it is not meant to be. It is only realistic.

    If I were Phil Hughes, why would I want to be a Minnesota Twin?

    I am a California dude, been playing on the east coast with the most storied franchise in MLB history and have gotten use to winning or at least being in the hunt every year for a playoff spot. I am sure Hughes and his reps realize that he is not a good fit for the band box that is the New Yankees Stadium. I would probably want to see if the SF Giants were a match, after that, the Dodgers, Angels... maybe even the Cardinals - for these teams, I might sign a short term, team friendly deal if I cannot get the desired deal I am looking for (Cardinals = better chance of winning and all of the mentioned teams play in a pitcher friendly environment).

    If I were to consider the Twins, I would have to get over payed, with at least a 3 year deal.

    Why would I want to play for a team that is in a Big City, in the middle of nowhere, that has lost more the 90 games annually the last 3 years, a place I could never conceivably put my roots down in year round, because the winters are fricking awful. I want to be able to chill on the beach, take in the rays, and ride a wave if I want to.

    On paper Phil Hughes appears to be a nice fit, but is he?

    My guess is that he signs with the SF Giants.

    P.S.: I love Minnesota, but living here is what I know. The winter sucks and spring and fall are a crap shoot, summer is excellent. If I were a warm weather raised baseball player, this would factor into my decision immensely.

  3. #23
    Of the free agents available I'd prefer to go after Jimenez because he at least will gives us the opportunity to have a true ace on staff if he hits form. If I wanted a solid starting pitcher who's gonna eat innings and keep us in games I'd go Nolasco. If I wanted to take a flyer on potential then it's definitely Josh Johnson. If healthy he can be a natural leader and ace of the staff and he's been proven on an average team before. I'd even consider signing him up on top of one of Jimenez and Nolasco.
    I'd also like for the Twins to take a look at trading for a good pitcher who had a down year. Some guys I'd hope we ask about are Jeremy Hellickson, Ricky Romero, Chad Billingsley, Yovani Gallardo, Dan Hudson and Trevor Cahill all of who I think the Twins could shake a deal out for without giving up the farm

  4. #24
    [QUOTE=Bark's Lounge;177124]This may sound negative, but it is not meant to be. It is only realistic.

    If I were Phil Hughes, why would I want to be a Minnesota Twin? [QUOTE]

    If his goal is to sign a 1-year contract where he can build value, TF would be far better than NY and the AL central is quite a bit easier to pitch against. Plus, he would have to really stink it up to get dropped out of this rotation. It is a low pressure environment to build value.

    If Hughes wants a 3-4 year deal, he is not an impact player with a contender. He is Correia with upside. That is not likely to get him a big payday with a contender. Target field is a good fit so the Twins, as desperate as they are might being willing to pay the most. And, if it is 4 years, 2014 should be the only bad year.

    I am not sure why he gets so much love here. He would be a decent addition and might be better with in TF pitching alot of games in the AL central. He is juust entering his prime so there is a decent chance he might even improve. And, we won't have to pay him for years when his performance is likely declining. However, I would rather have Nolasco, Feldman or Kazmir. Pelfrey might even be better. Burnett is 37 but he was much better than Hughes last year.

  5. #25
    Senior Member All-Star Bark's Lounge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major Leauge Ready View Post
    If his goal is to sign a 1-year contract where he can build value, TF would be far better than NY and the AL central is quite a bit easier to pitch against. Plus, he would have to really stink it up to get dropped out of this rotation. It is a low pressure environment to build value.

    If Hughes wants a 3-4 year deal, he is not an impact player with a contender. He is Correia with upside. That is not likely to get him a big payday with a contender. Target field is a good fit so the Twins, as desperate as they are might being willing to pay the most. And, if it is 4 years, 2014 should be the only bad year.

    I am not sure why he gets so much love here. He would be a decent addition and might be better with in TF pitching alot of games in the AL central. He is juust entering his prime so there is a decent chance he might even improve. And, we won't have to pay him for years when his performance is likely declining. However, I would rather have Nolasco, Feldman or Kazmir. Pelfrey might even be better. Burnett is 37 but he was much better than Hughes last year.
    My post was never meant to prop Hughes up. Sure, he may be a good acquisition at the right price and most Twins fans would be happy with him signing with us. Hughes will probably get offers from other clubs that have a better chance to contend and are more desirable destinations for him. I Do NOT think that Phil Hughes will sign with the Twins when there are so many open rotation spots on the west coast with teams that are probably more willing to spend and have a better chance to contend.

    If my post was unclear... my apologies.

    It is unlikely Phil Hughes is a MN Twin next year.

    Plus: All of the west coast teams have favorable ball parks for pitchers.
    Last edited by Bark's Lounge; 11-10-2013 at 09:17 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Bark's Lounge View Post
    My post was never meant to prop Hughes up. Sure, he may be a good acquisition at the right price and most Twins fans would be happy with him signing with us. Hughes will probably get offers from other clubs that have a better chance to contend and are more desirable destinations for him. I Do NOT think that Phil Hughes will sign with the Twins when there are so many open rotation spots on the west coast with teams that are probably more willing to spend and have a better chance to contend.

    If my post was unclear... my apologies.

    It is unlikely Phil Hughes is a MN Twin next year.

    Plus: All of the west coast teams have favorable ball parks for pitchers.
    I did not necessarily think you were proping up Hughes. If he wants a 1 year deal to build value, who cares? I would rather take a stab at Johnson or sign Burnett or Arroyo for 2 years. If it is 3-4 years, he is going to follow the money. If he signs a 3-year deal he will be young enough for one more shot at a big contract. However, as we know with SPs, they often go down to injury never to regain their past form. He takes the money if he decides to go for a 3-4 year deal and the Twins are going to be aggressive on this type of deal. The owner has given the OK and it simply makes sense from a business perspective. They are going to erode the fan base if they don't get quite a bit better.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    Yuck.
    Albers, Correia & Deduno are 4th - 5th starters on most other teams
    Diamond is a spot starter/bulpen arm on a decent team, who is only good if he is getting GB.
    Vanimal is in the bullpen on most other teams.

    Over their career, these guys have shown to be sub-par pitchers, with a proven record of being bad. Any replacement level pitcher is capable of a putting together a few decent starts.

    In my opinion, Worley is the only guy who might have a "bounce back" year and become more than 4th or 5th starter.

    None of those guys should hold back anyone or stop Ryan from getting a good FA pitcher. Hughes would be an OK start, but if he is the best we get, its going to be another long year at target field.

  8. #28
    I haven't seen Paul Maholm mentioned in any of these threads talking about the starting rotation. He seems like the kind of guy he Twins would go after. Soft-tossing lefty groundball (PTC!) guy. Probably won't ask for a ton of money either. He's nothing special but IIRC, he was good for a stretch last year. Would be another Correia-type presence in the rotation: lackluster but a step-up from a lot of the garbage we've put on the mound in recent years.

    It's not very realistic to think the team will sign guys who want big deals like E. Santana, Nolasco, or Jiminez. The Twins don't do that. They'll go out and sign one or two mediocre starters for little $$$ and maybe a bigger name on a 1 year deal.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcphitman View Post

    If they nail Hughes, we should consider it a victory and a good offseason. Remember, we aren't going to want to commit to that many pitchers when we know Meyer and May are going to be ready in 2015 most likely and with how conservative the team is.
    The idea that this may happen is not unrealistic given the history. At the same time, to call that a "victory" is to be content with losing 90+ games...again. This is not ok and the fan base cannot be ok with it. Better than recent history does not equal good and although it may set me up for let down, I am hoping for more. Of all the write ups so far I felt that Thrylos nailed it the best. Different from his ideas I would be content with one multi-year and two single-year deals; like Kazmir for a 2-3yr deal and Baker/Johnson for one each. If they only sign one guy then the fans need to go nuts.

  10. #30
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    Completely agree on Gibson. He was projected at one time as a top 10-15 talent in the draft, he pitched 51 underwhelming innings his first year back after Tommy John and now people are ready to give up on him? Looking ahead to the future, we have Gibson and Meyer. Two down, three to go.
    Can they at least have some success in the major leagues before we write their name in stone? Seems just a tad more prudent.

  11. #31
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    Those wanting Hughes he wants a 1 year deal, he is an extreme fly ball pitcher & the OF next year will be Willingham/Presley/Arcia can you say 6.00+ era

  12. #32
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    Anyone putting Worley/Hendriks in the rotation over GIbson are quite remiss. I think it's safe to say both Meyer & Gibson will be in the rotation at some point next year but will have innings limits.

  13. #33
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    IMO the way to go is go after 1 guy who can be a legit top of the rotation guy or solid ground ball types who will sign 2-3 year deals.

  14. #34
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Monkeypaws's Avatar
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    Kazmir, Kazmir, Kazmir!

  15. #35
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    Johan is shot. 1 shoulder capsule? Bad, bad news. 2? Forget it.

    If he comes in on a short, prove-it basis, then he might be an ok signing. Key though would be his role in the bullpen and the clubhouse. There's an inherent contradiction though, in that JS is a power/SO pitcher. "Twins Way" is all nitpicking, "pitch-to-contact" approach. Who wins that way? Why not sign Jamie Moyer?

    Twins have a real crossroads ahead. The days of "gotcha" small-ball in AL parks is over. Everybody's wise to that. Twins SP don't pitch for strikes and aren't power arms as a rule.

    Twins pitching philosophy seems to be: cheat your way thru, pick the corners, never challenge, try to get lucky/hope for the best, pray for rain. Who knows? You might get lucky for 100 P at the MLB level! Rick Anderson needs to go. Where is the winning philosophy here?

    Why do the Twins avoid signing SO power pitchers like the plague? Is it just from being cheap? Addiction to the mentality that The Farm is actually producing kick-ass all-rounders? Where, in the world of baseball, is striking out batters a bad thing? Not even one guy in the rotation? And you're trying to sell this 'product' for a buck? Get out of town.

    Though the Twins farm system is good at producing outfielders, they can't produce good infielders or pitchers. Who was the last All-Star SP from the Twins farm? Do the Twins have a tradition of developing starting pitching? Why not? Accountability. Terry Ryan, you're fired.

    Spent this last WS cheering for BOSox/Ortiz on principle vs. a co-worker who is a lifelong Cards fan. Why in hell can the Cards produce a WS SP Wacha on a seemingly clocklike basis, whereas the Twins (farm system highly rated, frequently compared w/Birdos) can't come up with a GD decent SP? Why does Albers have to literally hunt the scouts down just to get a shot? How ignorant of talent can you be?

    I am a lifelong Twins fan- hometown-no choice. For better or worse, they're my team. I'll live & die by them. Why the Vikes have more fans, despite an 0-4 championship record is beyond me.

    I want my team to win. You compete to win, otherwise, you stay at home. I am sick and tired of TR excuses for being a cheap-ass and playing fans along. Twins are flush after fan support at Target Field + new TV deal (extra $25 mil).

    Prediction: TR signs one mid-level SP (reclamation project) on the cheap for a couple of years at most, and "fill holes" with the rabble we have on hand already. None of our SPs are 1-2-3 ready on any other rotation in the MLB, but TR will go on a PR blitz to convince you so.
    Shysterism.
    Feel free to pile on about Suzuki.

  16. #36
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigTrane View Post
    Who was the last All-Star SP from the Twins farm?
    Depends on how you are counting either Santana in 2007 (*) or Liriano in 2006.

    And I do not think that it is much of a farm issue. The Garza/Liriano/Baker/Bonser/Slowey/Blackburn/Perkins pipeline was a Twins' farm product and it was a good pipeline. However, the manager and pitching coach in the majors turned it into a single closer for the team. You cannot blame the farm for alienating and trading Garza and Slowey, tossing away Liriano and messing around with injured pitchers (Baker, Bonser, Blackburn, Slowey)

    I do agree that there is an issue (and I also agree that there is no accountability.) But it is not at the farm. It is in Minnesota


    (*) He learned his chanceup in Edmonton in 2002 from Bobby Cuellar, so since before it he was an one pitch pony, I consider him a Twins' farm developed player...
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    Blogging Twins since 2007 at The Tenth Inning Stretch
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