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Thread: New to here... opinionated, but respectful.

  1. #1

    New to here... opinionated, but respectful.

    I will play nice, but I certainly have my views. I am pretty fed up with losing 90+ games and the "twins way." I put my money where my mouth is and b/c of it, I cancelled my season tickets. I know things are not necessarily all Gardy's fault but I am blown away by the fact that the team made ZERO changes to the coaching staff after a third year of 90+ losses (as an aside, I believe Gardy is the only mgr to have never gotten to a world series, to lose 90+ games three years in a row, and not be fired). To me, Rick Anderson is the real culprit -- i cannot name one pitcher who has truly developed and excelled under his guidance. In fact, most pitchers have blossomed after leaving the twins -- unless they had injury issues.

    I simply want a decent product on the field -- one that plays intelligent, runs balls out, advances runners, and at least does all the little things (ie what winning teams do).

    A few thoughts:

    • Management has no real need to win -- the new ballpark will have nearly 3 million fans every year, because, the new park is so damn nice! We could easily become/are the Cubs of the AL (fans will show up no matter what)
    • All of these decisions in the past have led us to where we are now: getting nothing for Torii (keeping him too long), holding Santana a year too long (getting low value), Hardy for Hoey, Ramos for Capps, Nishioka debacle, NOT developing or keeping at least one of these guys: Lohse, Garza, Liriano, Dickey, Crain, Breslow, Balfour... BOTTOM LINE is they had some currency to keep the flow of young talent coming in and they have made bad decisions regarding that currency.
    • Perhaps the most egregious mgmt disaster is the treatement of Spanish speaking players. They do not have a Spanish speaking dugout coach!!! The twins daycare for players do not have a Spanish speaking staff member (I knew a former player who could not bring his family/child to the daycare on Sunday family day games b/c of this). Does the organization think they are still in 1965?! Do you really think a guy like Ervin Santana would come here on a fair market deal when he would be treated as such!? What about guys like Arcia, Sano, Rosario, Florimon and others... Is the organization doing all it can to help these players assimilate and be part of the organization and the community!?
    • Ryan recently said that Willingham's $21 million contract ($7 mil a yr) is HUGE! If that's what mgmt thinks is the high end of free agency, then I am CERTAIN my decision to cancel tickets was a wise one!


    My soapbox is perhaps too high -- and I apologize, but it just saddens me to see a team I want to love just do things wrong time and time again!

    Again, I'll play nice -- will never insult anyone directly and hide behind the internet, but will certainly give my opinion!

  2. #2
    I cancelled my season tickets too. I only had a partial plan, but I cancelled it. I cant support this. Spend some money and get back to me. I'm a forgiving person.

  3. #3
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vikesfan47 View Post
    In fact, most pitchers have blossomed after leaving the twins -- unless they had injury issues.
    I certainly understand your frustration; most of us share that frustration.

    But this sentence is patently untrue. Yes, there have been some success by former Twins pitchers. There has also been complete, unmitigated failure. Most have fallen somewhere in between.

    In other words, about where you'd expect things to fall once you average out results.

  4. #4
    Senior Member All-Star James's Avatar
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    First of all, welcome to TD!

    I still bought my season tickets this year. I really wanted an All-Star game package. I still really enjoy going to games, because even a bad day at the ballpark is better than most other days. I probably will cancel them after this year if there isn't any visible improvement in the team though.

    All that said, I don't really think that we have to worry about the Twins being the cubs of the AL. Some people will show up no matter what, but there are far too many games for them to be sold out all the time like the cubs. MN fans are more discerning than that.

    There are are perfect examples: The Timberwolves. I know they look pretty good at the moment, but they have been bad for a long time, and some people go to the games. But remember, it was just a few years ago that they were giving tickets away so that the stadium didn't look empty on national TV. I think that's proof that MN fans will stop going if they don't get to see a reasonable product.
    You can come up with statistics to prove anything. Forty percent of all people know that.

  5. #5
    Super Moderator All-Star ChiTownTwinsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vikesfan47 View Post
    but I am blown away by the fact that the team made ZERO changes to the coaching staff after a third year of 90+ losses
    Well, adding Molitor isn't zero changes. But I hear ya. Wouldn't necessarily have been what I would have done but then I'm not in charge.

    And welcome. And respectful is key.
    "Peace, love, dope! Now get the hell out!"
    Resistance is Sisyphusian!

  6. #6
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Welcome to TD. Many of us share many of your frustrations.

    As you go through other threads you'll be able to address many of your concerns individually. I'm not going to address them now because I feel like we've hashed and re-hashed most of them.

    At this point in time, I'm just sitting back and waiting to see if TR can "change his stripes" and come through on some of the rumors we're hearing about being aggressive in free agency, etc.

    I refuse to get my hopes up until I see the results .... until then, it is just a lot of hot air blowing from the hot stove.

  7. #7
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    This isn't a slight on you, but people who do the whole "I am canceling my season tickets" really bug me and come off as very fairweather-ish.

    Of course it's your right to cancel tickets/not pay for them etc, but is it really necessary to state it to everyone? I am pretty sure everyone who watches the Twins are who are involved are well aware that they have been downright terrible the past few years, people stating that "they are canceling tickets" doesn't change that and doesn't suddenly make St Peter and Ryan realize that 90+ loses a year isn't acceptable.

    Frankly, I don't mind 2-3 bad seasons, especially since the Twins look to be on the upswing soon (perhaps even this year), I am much more bothered by the fact we won the division 6 out of the 9 years prior and only won ONE playoff series. Every team not named the Yankees or Red Sox go through these 2-3 year rough patches to rebuild.

  8. #8
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Of course it's your right to cancel tickets/not pay for them etc, but is it really necessary to state it to everyone? I am pretty sure everyone who watches the Twins are who are involved are well aware that they have been downright terrible the past few years, people stating that "they are canceling tickets" doesn't change that and doesn't suddenly make St Peter and Ryan realize that 90+ loses a year isn't acceptable.
    I'm not so sure about that when it comes to St. Peter & Pohlad (I'll concede the point on Ryan). We didn't hear many rumors about the Twins changing some of their practices and being aggressive in free agency, etc. until after there started being a lot more empty seats in the stadium. And call me a cynic, but I think the timing of Pohlad's statements about money to spend (Sept. 13) had a lot to do with then-upcoming season renewals.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    This isn't a slight on you, but people who do the whole "I am canceling my season tickets" really bug me and come off as very fairweather-ish.

    Of course it's your right to cancel tickets/not pay for them etc, but is it really necessary to state it to everyone? I am pretty sure everyone who watches the Twins are who are involved are well aware that they have been downright terrible the past few years, people stating that "they are canceling tickets" doesn't change that and doesn't suddenly make St Peter and Ryan realize that 90+ loses a year isn't acceptable.
    I too thought the season ticket thing was unnecessary. If you have an opportunity to go to the ball park you should take it. I would do anything to have season tickets if I could. I have to get over to Detroit if I want to catch a Twins game. You have good reason to get rid of your season tickets, but no need to tell us about it. At least this year, you might be able to catch some of prospects coming up!
    Anyway enough of that, welcome to TD! It is always good to have more people join in.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    I believe Bobby Cuellar speaks Spanish, but I could be wrong.
    Welcome to the site, everyone has their opinions. All are passionate about the Twins. I also agree on not liking the losses, but most midmarket teams have to reload at some point and Bill Smith made a number of foolish trades(some to please Gardy, but that is another issue). Feel the Twins are going to be competitive starting probably in 2016 for division titles again, but we should see improvement this year. Biggest issue I see with the Twins in the future is being able to keep their FA's and trading the ones they cannot keep 2 years early at the height of their value. St. Louis is an excellent model to follow.

  11. #11
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    As a former season ticket holder as well, I think that urge to say it stems from two things: how many times the Twins call you begging and you need to repeat it and also from your own disappointment in giving them up. The Twins don't deserve most of the season ticket money they get, but that doesn't make the choice any easier if you truly love the team.

    i have a feeling a lot of people like James who held on to a package just for allstar tickets are going to join the chorus of people leaving if next season doesn't offer significant progress.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Boom Boom's Avatar
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    People have options on what kind of entertainment to spend their money on. If the Twins are terrible, and the TF experience + All Star game isn't worth the price to a person otherwise, I fully support the cancelling of one's season tickets, and I'd never rip in to someone for being a fairweather sports fan.

    I like baseball, but I'm not obliged to like the product that's available to me. I was shopping for barbecue sauce at the grocery store and didn't like my options, so I skipped it. I still like barbecue sauce though.

    To the OP - welcome to the forums. I think I'm in the same boat as you, I'd like to like the Twins, but they're just not giving me any reasons to right now.

  13. #13
    Bobby Cuellar does speak Spanish -- but is from Texas (not Latino; MAJOR difference too) and is a bullpen coach, not in the dugout. I cannot imagine any other MLB team would have ZERO Spanish speaking bench coaches! It's 2013 - are you kidding me!?

  14. #14
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    But this sentence is patently untrue. Yes, there have been some success by former Twins pitchers. There has also been complete, unmitigated failure. Most have fallen somewhere in between.
    I just do not know many pitchers who went elsewhere and did not do well, unless injured. The other list, the one of Twins' pitchers who did better elsewhere is long. And I am talking about starting pitchers mostly.

    Can you name any names of players who did worse after they left the Twins, with the exception of injuries and aging? And I really mean the Anderson years.
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  15. #15
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Do the twins have any players who can't speak English?

    I don't see why they need to enact some bizarre affirmative action just to get somebody who speaks Spanish. I'm not a fan of some of the twins coaches, but I am certainly glad they added molitor.

  16. #16
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vikesfan47 View Post
    Bobby Cuellar does speak Spanish -- but is from Texas (not Latino; MAJOR difference too)
    Why is that a major difference? If communication is the issue (which honestly I don't see as an issue at all personally) then why does it matter where he was born at?

    Are you implying that only Latin coaches can coach Latin players? Because that notion seems a little over the top and ridiculous.

    Also the Twins aren't the only team without a "Latino" bench coach or whatever.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    I think the goal of stating your desire not to renew is to influence more people to do the same. If your frustrated that you pay a lot of money for those tickets and don't see the team investing at what you percieve is an equitable amount back then why stop at cancelling your tickets when you can try to influence other to do the same. That = more pain for the Twins owners. People do this all the time. There are alot of "complaint"sites like ripoff.com for this sort of thing as Word of mouth is the most effective form of advertising good or bad. If the Twins do not spend any money on a pitcher this offseason I wouldn't buy any tickets, if they do I may try to plan a trip to Minnesota to go to a blogger function/ game or 2. I am willing however to watch a free game on TV regardless of what they do which supports the team i guess. So long as the money is not comming out of my pocket.

  18. #18
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    I just do not know many pitchers who went elsewhere and did not do well, unless injured. The other list, the one of Twins' pitchers who did better elsewhere is long. And I am talking about starting pitchers mostly.

    Can you name any names of players who did worse after they left the Twins, with the exception of injuries and aging? And I really mean the Anderson years.
    Eric Milton. Matt Guerrier. Juan Rincon. Carlos Silva. That's off the top of my head.

    As for players who did better, who is there? Francisco Liriano, sure. Pat Neshek is another one. Kyle Lohse is up for debate once you look into his peripherals. The move to the NL was the biggest change there. The Twins certainly gave up on him too early and didn't get enough for him, that much can be said.

    Guys like Matt Garza, Johan Santana, and Jesse Crain were good with the Twins. No surprise that they continued to be good with a new team.

    Grant Balfour was let go for injury and 40 man roster reasons. I don't think anyone was down on him if he could stay healthy... I know I certainly wasn't.

  19. #19
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Eric Milton. Matt Guerrier. Juan Rincon. Carlos Silva. That's off the top of my head.
    Yeah and by the same token if we are going to eliminate injuries from the equation, then we can't count Liriano as a "success after Minnesota" IMO since injuries were a large issue on why he was ineffective here later on.

    Also add Joe Mays and Kevin Slowey to that list of pitchers who did worse/didn't get better.

    The problem isn't the Twins letting good pitchers go and them becoming better, the problem is the pitchers the Twins had were never really good in the first place.

    If you look at the pitchers who all of a sudden got a lot better, it is more just random then anything else:

    RA Dickey- NOBODY saw this coming.
    Liriano- I wanted them to keep him, this one still stings.
    Loshe- Was pretty much the same pitcher the first 5 years after the Twins let him go, suddenly now he starts pitching better? He was pretty meidocre in his first 3 years as a Card as well, so that wasn't the reason.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    I just do not know many pitchers who went elsewhere and did not do well, unless injured. The other list, the one of Twins' pitchers who did better elsewhere is long. And I am talking about starting pitchers mostly.

    Can you name any names of players who did worse after they left the Twins, with the exception of injuries and aging? And I really mean the Anderson years.
    This is an old exercise and it continues to disprove your point, thrylos, time and again. It also fails to prove anything about Rick Anderson's prowess as a pitching coach.
    And this exercise is ALWAYS going to lead to all the useless stuff: "yeah, but Dickey sucked elsewhere before he stopped sucking for the Mets" or "yeah, but he was injured".

    Please let's let this one rest, along with all the other ones like it. Like how much better Vavra is than Brunansky as proven by the "facts".

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