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Thread: Official 'Twins Aren't Doing Stuff' Thread

  1. #41
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinscowboysbulls View Post
    Point taken. I love the discussion and want it! I just don't want the whole basis of arguments against me being that it is early, something I stated already. It's an excuse, that's all it is. Saying that it is early and a lot of things can happen is an excuse. If you go into a bar and order a basket of fries and an hour later you are still waiting for your fries. You might ask your waitress where your fries are, right? Is she going to tell you, well sir, it's only been an hour, can you wait longer? No, she is going to tell you she will find out and get you those fries ASAP.
    Saying it is too early is not an excuse - it is a valid statement that many (including myself) believe is true. When you open a thread for discussion, you don't get to decide up front which rebuttals are valid and which are not.

    And as far as the french fry analogy, I'll propose this:

    A person goes to a basketball game, filled with high hopes and expectations. Four minutes into the first quarter the home team is down 8-2 after a slow start. The persons gets disgusted, decides the home team is just not trying and that the game is lost, and walks out. Reasonable?

  2. #42
    Senior Member All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    When people label opinions and analysis as facts it does not make them any more legitimate.

    Fact: It is really, really early in FA.
    Fact: One team has signed a 'quality' pitcher (Hudson, who is aging and probably not ready for rebuild). (On JJ: Any pitcher on a one year deal can hardly be described as quality).
    Fact: TR intends to give anyone capable of eating innings a chance to eat them. The guys you mention aren't being counted on.
    Fact: Two starting pitchers have signed.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    How many teams have made moves so far? A handful. This is a ludicrously early judgment.

    It's just too bad that some fans take every rumor about bullpen arms getting a chance to start, minor acquisitions of minor starters, and other teams signings of near-broken arms to mean that the Twins don't know what there doing, and at the same time, ignore any rumor that suggests the Twins will have a productive offseason. Too many are seething at the mouth to condemn the team they claim to be a fan of based on the thinnest of indicators. I just don't get it.
    I understand your comments. As a fan, yes I do claim to call myself that. I guess if you are able to not look at the past, and only concentrate on this off-season then more power to you. If you truly look at how things have been handled in the past, it is hard to believe things you hear about "promise." Last year we needed starting pitching and we waited til the last minute to get the bottom of the barrel guys. Either that or we got whoever would come here for the cheapest rate.

    I'm all for the rumors about starting pitchers, as you can look up in my past posts from 2-3 weeks ago. None of those moves have happened though. Yes, it is early. We/I/Everyone is very well aware of this. I understand that the season doesn't start tomorrow and we have until early Spring Training to form our roster. It just appears that we are walking through old footprints. Maybe I read too much into the things Terry Ryan says, maybe I just don't believe anything he says anymore.

    For what it's worth, I'm understanding the statements made for what they are worth. Terry has stated that he hopes Kris Johnson makes the rotation and that Duensing and Swarzak have been told to prepare to start and relieve. Those three things could mean absolutely nothing, or they could mean everything. It's up for interpretation. I'm interpreting it based on the facts that in the past 3 years, we haven't made the necessary moves to improve our roster(our record proves that), why should we believe that "this is the year."

  4. #44
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    For a change, I am still optimistic about this offseason. Agents and sports writers both are claiming the Twins have strong interest in top free agent arms. This is unprecedented information under Terry Ryan's management.

    Still, for those telling others to settle down, there is reason for concern. The trade for Kris Johnson, his presence on the 40-man and the statement that he, Duensing and Swarzak may need to start next year is simply too much of the same troubled and archaic pitching philosophy that continues to lose games for this team.

    Still, the multiple reports tying the Twins to top arms is a new development and until those guys sign with other clubs I'll give the team the benefit of the doubt, even if only for the sake of not having egg on my face come March.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoPilgrim View Post
    Saying it is too early is not an excuse - it is a valid statement that many (including myself) believe is true. When you open a thread for discussion, you don't get to decide up front which rebuttals are valid and which are not.

    And as far as the french fry analogy, I'll propose this:

    A person goes to a basketball game, filled with high hopes and expectations. Four minutes into the first quarter the home team is down 8-2 after a slow start. The persons gets disgusted, decides the home team is just not trying and that the game is lost, and walks out. Reasonable?
    Well it all depends. Is the home team's center 6'4" going up against a player that is 7'1"?Is the home team's shooting guard going to Minnesota Duluth and the other team's guard going to Duke? Your analogy made me laugh out loud. We could go back and forth with analogies all morning long. The point is, the Twins haven't done anything yet and until they do, were going to continue to be over-matched, just like your Home team.

  6. #46
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    The Twins were associated with pitchers last offseason too. Sanchez was one. I think it went all the way down, aside from Harden, to Saunders. And it was similar (someone posted this in another thread somewhere, by the way) . . . talks and no offers. You aren't serious with anyone until you make an offer.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    When people label opinions and analysis as facts it does not make them any more legitimate.

    Fact: It is really, really early in FA.
    Fact: One team has signed a 'quality' pitcher (Hudson, who is aging and probably not ready for rebuild). (On JJ: Any pitcher on a one year deal can hardly be described as quality).
    Fact: TR intends to give anyone capable of eating innings a chance to eat them. The guys you mention aren't being counted on.
    Fact: Two starting pitchers have signed.
    1: So we both agree, it is early.
    2: For every pitcher that comes off the market, it decreases our chances of signing other pitchers. Agree? (what is better, more pitchers or less pitchers to choose from?)
    3: Agreed, they are not counting on them YET.
    4: Agreed.

    When I started this thread, I didn't intend to be the most pessimistic person of all time, I've been made out to be that though. For what it's worth this deep into the thread, my original post was meant to point out that it seems early on that we are not changing our ways. Not to defeat all optimism among fans.

  8. #48
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Is this true? A quick Google yielded this:

    November 2012: "So far, the Twins have reached out to free agents Brandon McCarthy, Anibal Sanchez, Joe Blanton, Ryan Dempster, and Brett Myers."

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/1...ter-myers.html

    Obviously not all good names, but:
    Sanchez > Nolasco
    Dempster == Arroyo

    Edwin Jackson was also rumored the past two offseasons.
    Sorry spycake, YOU did it and you did in THIS thread.

  9. #49
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    2012 Sanchez, 2013 Garza
    2012 Blanton, 2013 Nolasco
    2012 Dempster, 2013 Arroyo

    Pretty damn similar.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinscowboysbulls View Post
    Come on man, really? I'm stating that the Twins are in the same shell. Currently i'm correct. I realize were not going to hear about it every time we offer a guy a contract, but when players are flat out saying "The Twins haven't made an offer" I tend to believe that. I expected more, not less from TR. As far as the 16 better pitchers according to your book? Who cares, (No offense, although I've never owned or read it, I've heard positives) how many players were better than Corriea in your book last year? How many of those players did we sign?

    IMO, when you stink, you need to be a little bit more aggressive than you need to be when you are good. I believe that is why Bill Smith was able to wait it out and sign pretty decent players towards the end of FA, for pretty reasonable dollar amounts.

    It just appears that we are going to settle into our roots and sign run of the mill guys, again. I hope I can eat Crow Pie on this.
    You know, the articles I read where the players said that the Twins haven't made an offer also came with a comment that no one has. The free agent market starts moving during winter meetings. That's a fact that has been true with baseball for as long as I can remember it. You won't see much movement until then, especially with the holiday next week.

    I will be upset if they walk away from winter meetings with nothing, but until then, there's absolutely no reason to get worked up. John is right about that.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    You know, the articles I read where the players said that the Twins haven't made an offer also came with a comment that no one has. The free agent market starts moving during winter meetings. That's a fact that has been true with baseball for as long as I can remember it. You won't see much movement until then, especially with the holiday next week.

    I will be upset if they walk away from winter meetings with nothing, but until then, there's absolutely no reason to get worked up. John is right about that.
    Who is John?

  12. #52
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post

    I will be upset if they walk away from winter meetings with nothing, but until then, there's absolutely no reason to get worked up. John is right about that.
    Honestly I do feel like I'm hearing a broken record here. I actually agree that its too early but I have a hard time forgetting last season and a lot of optimism around here about what would be spent on starting pitching.

    While the Twins will not be on my "Thanksgiving Thankfulness" list, there are lots of other things there (including TD). Best to concentrate on them and on having a blessed, joyful Christmas (or whatever you may individually celebrate). There'll be plenty of time in January and later to be depressed -- or pleasantly surprised -- by the Twins.

  13. #53
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Is this true? A quick Google yielded this:

    November 2012: "So far, the Twins have reached out to free agents Brandon McCarthy, Anibal Sanchez, Joe Blanton, Ryan Dempster, and Brett Myers."

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/1...ter-myers.html

    Obviously not all good names, but:
    Sanchez > Nolasco
    Dempster == Arroyo

    Edwin Jackson was also rumored the past two offseasons.
    Earlier in the post, I mentioned "outside Minnesota", which is a pretty important modifier in my opinion. For example, Ken Rosenthal has tweeted about the Twins' interest in Nolasco. Buster Olney has also reported that they're pushing hard for Arroyo.

    Did that happen in earlier years? It's possible, maybe I just don't remember it... But it's definitely happening this year.

  14. #54
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    I am more likely to defend someone making a point in starting a thread then to heap on "quiet down" comments. So, can anyone even remember what happened this time last year? That is, what Twins activity was there before the Winter Meetings last year and was it more, less, or the same as the amount of activity so far this offseason? I ask because I don't really recall.

    And my issue isn't that the Twins have done nothing . . . because they have done things already! And said things. If they said things encouraging and did things that make sense (Welker for Johnson, then not protecting Achter, then even considering Duensing and Swarzak for the rotation . . . seems quite odd, and just rehashing with a new Clete Thomas . . .) then it would be different. This could all be bet-hedging in case TR fails to get two SP free agents, I think, but I also would not be surprised if the intent now really is to sign one and only one of the mid-tier pitchers out there.

  15. #55
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    I'm still encouraged by how publicly involved we have been so far, but I'm deeply disturbed that our recent decisions (and subsequent comments) seem to be taking the quantity over quality approach to starting pitching.

  16. #56
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    I don't know what to think, so I'm just sitting back and waiting. Not trying to make judgements just yet.
    Lighten up Francis....

  17. #57
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinscowboysbulls View Post
    Who is John?
    Well, a Geek, for one.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by twinscowboysbulls View Post
    Point taken. I love the discussion and want it! I just don't want the whole basis of arguments against me being that it is early, something I stated already. It's an excuse, that's all it is. Saying that it is early and a lot of things can happen is an excuse. If you go into a bar and order a basket of fries and an hour later you are still waiting for your fries. You might ask your waitress where your fries are, right? Is she going to tell you, well sir, it's only been an hour, can you wait longer? No, she is going to tell you she will find out and get you those fries ASAP.
    Here is the problem with your argument. An hour to deliver your food would be substantially in excess of what is reasonably expected. In other words, it would be very abnormal. In comparing the FA process, it is very normal that little is done by Nov 21st regardless of how motivated a team is to sign players. We are not talking about ordering a burger. We are talking about negotiating an 8 figure contracts. Therefore it is not an excuse, it simply is the norm for people engaged in negotiations of this magnitude to take their time, conduct due diligence, and examine a number of options before executing a contract.

    To use your burger ordering analogy, to complain at this point would be the rough equivalent of complaining to the server after 3 minutes if your burger that takes 6 minutes to prepare is ready.

    You are not concluding anything here. The relevent information by which to base a conclusion does not yet exist. You are presuming.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    Fact: TR intends to give anyone capable of eating innings a chance to eat them. The guys you mention aren't being counted on.
    Fact: the same was said last offseason, yet TR counted on all of those guys. Arguably the same thing was said before 2012, yet TR counted on mostly the same group.

    Are the circumstances slightly different this year? Yes, but mainly just the year. The burden of proof is definitely on TR to show something different this offseason. (Not that I endorse starting a new thread daily to note his lack of progress so far )

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Earlier in the post, I mentioned "outside Minnesota", which is a pretty important modifier in my opinion. For example, Ken Rosenthal has tweeted about the Twins' interest in Nolasco. Buster Olney has also reported that they're pushing hard for Arroyo.

    Did that happen in earlier years? It's possible, maybe I just don't remember it... But it's definitely happening this year.
    To me, the important distinction is between reporting actual contact with the player/agent, or just media speculation a team might pursue the player.

    Last November, it was reported that the Twins contacted a number of players/agents similar to this November. Similarly they were in contact with Edwin Jackson the previous offseason (reported by national sources, I know).

    Is it different this offseason? Maybe slightly, as a matter of degree. Very hard to tell.

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