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Thread: Official 'Twins Aren't Doing Stuff' Thread

  1. #21
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    I'm an unashamed pessimist about the management of this team at this point. I find it helpful to take "vacations" from this board and from Twins news.

    Honestly, reading it every day is about enough to send a person out on a ledge.

    You have to take it all with a box (forget a grain) of salt. And you really do have to start singing "Que Sera Sera" -- what will be, will be (where is Doris Day when you need her?). Because other than boycotting Twins games & merchandise, there isn't a heck of a lot you can do.

    (P.S. Did I put enough cliches in there?)

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    how early? There are at least 16 pitchers better than Correia in this year's handbook, and that's before we get to sleepers like Volquez and Colby Lewis and Santana AMD Halladay and Marcum and Floyd and whoever else. A grand total of TWO have signed so far. So there's still quite a bit left on the shelf.
    John, I don't think this thread is a reaction to a couple free agent pitchers signing elsewhere. It's a reaction to TR announcing 2 modest relievers and a marginal AAA starter have been added to the rotation mix.

    Twins 40-man roster now has the following 12 starting pitchers:

    Albers
    Correia
    Darnell
    Deduno
    Diamond
    Duensing
    Gibson
    Hendriks
    Johnson
    May
    Swarzak
    Worley

    Correia and Gibson should have spots, and most observers are in agreement that the Twins need to add two legit arms from outside.

    That leaves... 10 guys on the 40-man roster competing for the 5th starter spot, or headed to the pen/Rochester? That doesn't seem right at all. I think the Twins -- just like they did in 2012 and 2013 -- are counting on these guys WAY more than they should. (As much as they did in 2012 and 2013, which turned out quite poorly.)

  3. #23
    Banned Big-Leaguer
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    I Don't Hear Any Fat Lady Singing

    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    I'm an unashamed pessimist about the management of this team at this point. I find it helpful to take "vacations" from this board and from Twins news.

    Honestly, reading it every day is about enough to send a person out on a ledge.

    You have to take it all with a box (forget a grain) of salt. And you really do have to start singing "Que Sera Sera" -- what will be, will be (where is Doris Day when you need her?). Because other than boycotting Twins games & merchandise, there isn't a heck of a lot you can do.

    (P.S. Did I put enough cliches in there?)
    Did you get an opportunity to review Seth's projection of what our favorite team will look like come the season opener in 2015? I can't get Joan Jett's "I Love Rock and Roll" to stop playing.

  4. #24
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    Did you get an opportunity to review Seth's projection of what our favorite team will look like come the season opener in 2015? I can't get Joan Jett's "I Love Rock and Roll" to stop playing.

    I take everything Seth says with a box of salt, too. (And that is not being mean but of all the Twins Daily writers, I find Seth to be one of the most -- if not the most -- bullish on this team. Even over the last 3 years. He has been optimistic even in the midst of despair. That's his right but I'm not going to buy into it).

    Look, I like where the Twins farm system is at. But prospects are just that, prospects. I hope the Twins are contenders in 2015.

    But even if they are, nothing TR has done to date gives me any hope that he would take the necessary risks to move them from division contenders to a team that could actually win in the playoffs.

    Been burned too many times by hopefulness regarding this team.

    I would prefer to be pleasantly surprised rather than to have my hopes dashed once again.

  5. #25
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    It is too early indeed. Give it until February

    Interestingly enough, I remember hearing the same thing (even after the winter meetings, a bit later than now) before the 2010 season. Then they closed a couple of holes with signing Hudson and Thome at the late January/February time frame and things happened...

    Not that this team is only a couple players away, just that there is still time and most of the pitching target they have been connected with are still out there.

    I take TRs recent comments to mean a. Last year's rotation was horrible and we got Johnson who is better than Diamond and might be ahead of the horribles and b. because it was so horrible, if Duensing and Swarzak won to win a rotation spot at ST, let them at it.

    Now if come mid-late February the Twins have done nothing or additional bottom feeding, we shall discuss it then
    Last edited by Thrylos; 11-21-2013 at 09:01 AM.
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  6. #26
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Way too early to judge anything. Yeah, it's possible that Ryan holds the line and continues to underspend.

    On the other hand, we're hearing rumors of real interest by the Twins in some pricey players. We didn't hear that in years past. The Winter Meetings haven't happened yet. Only one or two guys have signed out of a pool of nearly 20.

    Getting frustrated now is like turning off a baseball game in the top of the first because the starter walked a guy with one out.

  7. #27
    * Notice the title of the thread - **EARLY JUDGEMENT** it is just how I see things shaking out in the beginning processes of this free agency period.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Way too early to judge anything. Yeah, it's possible that Ryan holds the line and continues to underspend.

    On the other hand, we're hearing rumors of real interest by the Twins in some pricey players. We didn't hear that in years past. The Winter Meetings haven't happened yet. Only one or two guys have signed out of a pool of nearly 20.

    Getting frustrated now is like turning off a baseball game in the top of the first because the starter walked a guy with one out.
    Nice analogy. To this point, TR is doing the same old song and dance. I realize it is early, people can stop saying that. This is the same old stuff we have heard from TR before, I'm not sure how others are not seeing it. He pretends to have interest in all of the upper tier players(below the top tier) until they are overpriced and signed. Then he has his pick of the litter at the lower tier of FA.

    I'm truly not being a "negative Nancy" about the Twins or Terry Ryan. I love this team. I'm just speaking the truth at the early stages of this off-season.

    Rocketpig- tell me what real interest is? TR saying that he likes a player? That we have made contact with agents? They have all said no contracts have been offered from Minnesota. Until there is a legitimate offer, I see no difference in the way we are going about things. Which means we will stay bad until our prospects get here.

  9. #29
    It is still early. There are only so many places the couple of dozen free agent starters can go. But I can't get excited about Duensing (a career low i innings pitched this past season where the supposed long-relief guy became an left specialist) and Swarzak, who wants to start, but fared very well out of the bullpen. Plus, both are tradable commodities and CAN be replaced. I don't get excited hearing their bumper music, sorry...and won';t be lining up at Twinsfest to meet or see them.

    Terry Ryan, if you are going to put an AAAA team on the field, the stands will be half-full, people will leave the game early, you won't see too many jerseys, and the money not spent doesn't carry over to the next season. At least when you invest in a player, that money is carried over to the next season and can be freeded up by trading the player possibly.
    Joel Thingvall
    www.thingvall.com
    rosterman at www.twinscards.com

  10. #30
    Darnell, Meyer, May, Gibson could all be starting at Rochester. You can switch Hendriks to the bullpen there. Duensing and Swarzak should be bullpen in the majors. Diamond should also get consideration as the new long-man in the bullpen. Johnson and Albers can fight it out for a long-man job in Rochester. Someone can always start at New Britain. Before siging any more minor free agents, the Twins have Vasquez and DSean and Wimmers and Baxendale also in the minor league mix.

    But Correia is the only major league lock. Deduno may still be recovering. Worley needs to get some starts to prove his worth. The Twins are solely lacking four starters to open the season. They could easily sign up to three bodies AND Santana as a project and not hurt the growth of anyone, considering Correia will come off the books in 2015 and two of the signed starters would probably be on 2-year deals. The Twins do have the $$$ today and will have the $$$ for a couple of years (and more) and can afford to gamble on arms. No one says you have to keep a signed pitcher for the entire contract if someone better shows up in the system (or in the marketplace). But, yes, sadly the Twins will have to blow a pitcher away with an offer to come here...or be really agressive and sign a BUNCH of quality guys that give a greater impression of winning, rather than total from the scratch see what we have bottom feeder rebuilding.

    I WANT TO HAVE TO PAY FULL-PRICE FOR A TICKET IN 2014, TERRY! Although the idea of $5 seats for a game and being alone in a section is not always bad!
    Joel Thingvall
    www.thingvall.com
    rosterman at www.twinscards.com

  11. #31
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    The title of this thread IS "Early Judgment" so I don't get why people want to get upset . . . it is a qualified by the word "early" here.

    If you actually look at everything:

    1. TR interview for Handbook (I just shudder every time I think about that)
    2. Public statements by TR and others, in general.
    3. The talk of Swarzak and Duensing preparing to be starters, potentially.
    4. The Welker-for-Johnson swap (absent the rest, it's a smart move . . .)
    5. The decision to not protect the top, next in line MR in the system.
    6. The signing of yet another aging OF filler at AAA/MLB in Chris Rahl.
    7. The love affair with Eric Fryer.

    8: 1-7 add up to a strange brew (at best) and perhaps the majority of movements to be made this offseason (at worst).

    Think about it. They now have moved towards filling their rotation with Kris Johnson and perhaps EITHER (not both, right) Swarzak or Duensing. They have added the Clete Thomas replacement (Evan Bigley, Danny Ortiz, etc. aren't more deserving of consideration?) in Chris Rahl. They essentially added a catcher in giving Fryer this two-way contract. That's "significant" movement at SP, backup OF, and C. It wouldn't surprise me if there is one more SP (who the hell knows) added, and one or two roving AAAA reliever types added. And that's it.

    Too early to judge on the whole, of course. Duh. But I would stop to pause and add up what as already been done and you see that things are starting to fill out here. And it sure as hell isn't good.

  12. #32
    Twins Moderator All-Star ChiTownTwinsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinscowboysbulls View Post
    Nice analogy. To this point, TR is doing the same old song and dance. I realize it is early, people can stop saying that. This is the same old stuff we have heard from TR before, I'm not sure how others are not seeing it. He pretends to have interest in all of the upper tier players(below the top tier) until they are overpriced and signed. Then he has his pick of the litter at the lower tier of FA.

    I'm truly not being a "negative Nancy" about the Twins or Terry Ryan. I love this team. I'm just speaking the truth at the early stages of this off-season.

    Rocketpig- tell me what real interest is? TR saying that he likes a player? That we have made contact with agents? They have all said no contracts have been offered from Minnesota. Until there is a legitimate offer, I see no difference in the way we are going about things. Which means we will stay bad until our prospects get here.
    People are free to say 'It's too early' as you are free to say 'TR hasn't done anything yet.' While I understand the frustrations, and past history of how things have worked, IMO it is too early to have all this angst. And as long as you are going to go out there and be publicly angst-ridden, I, and others, will go out there publicly and say 'It's too early.' It's called discussion of different points of view. When you start a thread, this is what you will get.

  13. #33
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinscowboysbulls View Post
    Nice analogy. To this point, TR is doing the same old song and dance. I realize it is early, people can stop saying that. This is the same old stuff we have heard from TR before, I'm not sure how others are not seeing it. He pretends to have interest in all of the upper tier players(below the top tier) until they are overpriced and signed. Then he has his pick of the litter at the lower tier of FA.

    I'm truly not being a "negative Nancy" about the Twins or Terry Ryan. I love this team. I'm just speaking the truth at the early stages of this off-season.

    Rocketpig- tell me what real interest is? TR saying that he likes a player? That we have made contact with agents? They have all said no contracts have been offered from Minnesota. Until there is a legitimate offer, I see no difference in the way we are going about things. Which means we will stay bad until our prospects get here.
    To me, the difference is that we're hearing reports from outside Minnesota that the Twins are involved in talks with various high-ish profile pitchers. We didn't hear that at all last season. We heard the Twins were in on Correia, who they signed. Near the end of the offseason, we heard them in on Saunders, who they didn't.

    Basically, we heard a few rumors that they were talking to some pretty mediocre-to-bad pitchers. Hearing that they're communicating with the likes of Kazmir (I think it was Kazmir, maybe I'm wrong there) is promising, though hardly confirmation that they're actually going to sign the guy.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    On the other hand, we're hearing rumors of real interest by the Twins in some pricey players. We didn't hear that in years past.
    Is this true? A quick Google yielded this:

    November 2012: "So far, the Twins have reached out to free agents Brandon McCarthy, Anibal Sanchez, Joe Blanton, Ryan Dempster, and Brett Myers."

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/1...ter-myers.html

    Obviously not all good names, but:
    Sanchez > Nolasco
    Dempster == Arroyo

    Edwin Jackson was also rumored the past two offseasons.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    The title of this thread IS "Early Judgment" so I don't get why people want to get upset . . . it is a qualified by the word "early" here.

    If you actually look at everything:

    1. TR interview for Handbook (I just shudder every time I think about that)
    2. Public statements by TR and others, in general.
    3. The talk of Swarzak and Duensing preparing to be starters, potentially.
    4. The Welker-for-Johnson swap (absent the rest, it's a smart move . . .)
    5. The decision to not protect the top, next in line MR in the system.
    6. The signing of yet another aging OF filler at AAA/MLB in Chris Rahl.
    7. The love affair with Eric Fryer.

    8: 1-7 add up to a strange brew (at best) and perhaps the majority of movements to be made this offseason (at worst).

    Think about it. They now have moved towards filling their rotation with Kris Johnson and perhaps EITHER (not both, right) Swarzak or Duensing. They have added the Clete Thomas replacement (Evan Bigley, Danny Ortiz, etc. aren't more deserving of consideration?) in Chris Rahl. They essentially added a catcher in giving Fryer this two-way contract. That's "significant" movement at SP, backup OF, and C. It wouldn't surprise me if there is one more SP (who the hell knows) added, and one or two roving AAAA reliever types added. And that's it.

    Too early to judge on the whole, of course. Duh. But I would stop to pause and add up what as already been done and you see that things are starting to fill out here. And it sure as hell isn't good.
    Basically my sentiment as well, Shane.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    The title of this thread IS "Early Judgment" so I don't get why people want to get upset . . . it is a qualified by the word "early" here.
    Because it does not matter if the thread is entitled "early judgment". That does not in anyway diminish how ill-conceived it is to evaluate the results of an effort / process that has just begun. Would you do this in a professional environment? Not unless you wanted to demonstrate incompetence.
    Last edited by Major Leauge Ready; 11-21-2013 at 11:25 AM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by ChiTownTwinsFan View Post
    People are free to say 'It's too early' as you are free to say 'TR hasn't done anything yet.' While I understand the frustrations, and past history of how things have worked, IMO it is too early to have all this angst. And as long as you are going to go out there and be publicly angst-ridden, I, and others, will go out there publicly and say 'It's too early.' It's called discussion of different points of view. When you start a thread, this is what you will get.
    Point taken. I love the discussion and want it! I just don't want the whole basis of arguments against me being that it is early, something I stated already. It's an excuse, that's all it is. Saying that it is early and a lot of things can happen is an excuse. If you go into a bar and order a basket of fries and an hour later you are still waiting for your fries. You might ask your waitress where your fries are, right? Is she going to tell you, well sir, it's only been an hour, can you wait longer? No, she is going to tell you she will find out and get you those fries ASAP.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    To me, the difference is that we're hearing reports from outside Minnesota that the Twins are involved in talks with various high-ish profile pitchers. We didn't hear that at all last season. We heard the Twins were in on Correia, who they signed. Near the end of the offseason, we heard them in on Saunders, who they didn't.

    Basically, we heard a few rumors that they were talking to some pretty mediocre-to-bad pitchers. Hearing that they're communicating with the likes of Kazmir (I think it was Kazmir, maybe I'm wrong there) is promising, though hardly confirmation that they're actually going to sign the guy.
    I get that. It's been 3 straight years of 90+ losses. They have no other choice but to at least pretend they are going to sign guys. I can't back this up with facts/stats right now, but it seems like there are more quality arms available this off-season than there were last season. Perhaps that is the reason why we are being linked to actual pitching more often this year than previous seasons.

  19. #39
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    How many teams have made moves so far? A handful. This is a ludicrously early judgment. Even if these judgments happen to be right, they will be guesses and gut feelings--not hard-won analysis of actual phenomenon or facts.

    It's just too bad that some fans take every rumor about bullpen arms getting a chance to start, minor acquisitions of minor starters, and other teams signings of near-broken arms to mean that the Twins don't know what there doing, and at the same time, ignore any rumor that suggests the Twins will have a productive offseason. Too many are seething at the mouth to condemn the team they claim to be a fan of based on the thinnest of indicators. I just don't get it.
    Last edited by PseudoSABR; 11-21-2013 at 10:20 AM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Major Leauge Ready View Post
    Because it does not matter entitle the thread early judgment. That does not in anyway diminish how ill-conceived it is to evaluate the results of an effort / process that has just begun. Would you do this in a professional environment? Not unless you wanted to demonstrate incompetence.
    Listen, the point of this post was to show that early in this offseason, IMO TR is appearing to back off from previous statements about signing some quality piching. Obviously it is early in the FA period. We all get that, to continually state that as the basis of an argument is a waste of everyone's time.

    FACT: It is early in FA.
    FACT: We haven't signed any "quality" pitchers.
    FACT: We are tied to players but no contracts have been offered(that we are aware of).
    FACT: TR has led us to believe that he intends to give Duensing, Johnson, Swarzak opportunities to be in our rotation in 2014.
    FACT: Pitchers have signed with other teams, which now gives us less options.

    Brock argued that it has worked in the past to wait things out(2010? signing hudson, thome late in offseason) Debating something other than "it is early, just wait and see." This horse is dead.

    The blessing in disguise is that it is EARLY. There are many FA pitchers we should be making offers to and finding out if we have a chance at getting them, before other teams snatch them up. If that happens then LATER in FA we can get pitchers like Ponson, Ortiz, Pelfrey.

    Which do you prefer?

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