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Thread: Over moderation

  1. #161
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    Definitely double standards from the members only club. Not that long ago the handful of Pro-Ryan supporters were not made to feel real welcome on the Twins fan board. My favorite mod awarded me points for saying the parade starts in 2015 and followed that up with another when I posted Ryan was the two time Baseball Executive of the Year. Seems that's trolling/flame-baiting on the Twins fan board.
    Last edited by howieramone; 02-10-2014 at 12:22 AM.

  2. #162
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    Definitely double standards from the members only club. Not that long ago the handful of Pro-Ryan supporters were not made to feel real welcome on the Twins fan board. My favorite mod awarded me points for saying the parade starts in 2015 and followed that up with another when I posted Ryan was the two time Baseball Executive of the Year. Seems that's trolling/flame-baiting on the Twins fan board.
    Howie... You need to realize...

    Some Anti-Ryan supporters think we have a bias to the Pro-Ryan Crowd and some Pro-Ryan supporters think we have a bias to the Anti-Ryan crowd.

    We know this because we get the PM's and we read them. We've been hit from both directions,

    We moderate disrespect primarily... Not opinion.

    If you were mis-moderated a time or two. Tomorrow is a new day.
    "9. Lipstick"

    "How can Canada produce Tie Domi and not have a better military"?

    "I noticed while robbing the First State Bank last night that if you go into the vault when nobody is looking... You can get away with it".

  3. #163
    Head Moderator All-Star glunn's Avatar
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    Some of the moderators would like to see Ryan gone. Other moderators would like to see him stay.

    Some days I have wanted Ryan to be fired like a dog. Other days I have completely agreed with the arguments for keeping him.

    We moderators are a members only club, but it's simply not true to say that we have any party line as to the issues that are debated on the forums. Our only party line is on enforcing TD policy.

    If we infract a pro-Ryan poster for insulting an anti-Ryan poster then we seem anti-Ryan. If we infract an anti-Ryan poster for trolling then we seem pro-Ryan.

    If people who are not moderators could read the posts that we have deleted, you would know that we have enforced TD policy against both groups. I would estimate that about 60% of the time I get complaints about us being "homers" who are intolerant of criticism of Ryan and the FO, and about 40% of the time the complaint is that we are biased against supporters of Ryan and the FO.

    Personally, I have deleted more posts where in general I agreed with the poster than posts where I disagreed, and I think that most or all of the other moderators have done the same.

    Bottom line -- if you are respectful of other members and refrain from trolling, then you can say anything you want. You can post 100 reasons why Ryan should be fired or 100 reasons why the critics of Ryan are incorrect. This is all laid out very clearly and in detail (with examples) in the official policy thread.

    What you cannot do is call another poster stupid or refer to Ryan as "baldy" or keep posting the same thing in multiple threads to the level that it constitutes trolling. This is all spelled out very clearly in the policy thread, and I have very little sympathy for posters who obviously have ignored us when we begged them to just read and follow the TD policy.

  4. #164
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    Definitely double standards from the members only club. Not that long ago the handful of Pro-Ryan supporters were not made to feel real welcome on the Twins fan board.
    There have been, by far, more "Anti-Ryan" posters infracted and/or banned from this site than the aforementioned "Pro" club could ever conceive of experiencing.

    Your problems have been entirely the delivery of your messages. That is no one else's fault but your own. Not some perceived double standard, not the anti-crowd, not the moderation staff.

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  6. #165
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glunn View Post
    Bottom line -- if you are respectful of other members and refrain from trolling, then you can say anything you want. You can post 100 reasons why Ryan should be fired or 100 reasons why the critics of Ryan are incorrect. This is all laid out very clearly and in detail (with examples) in the official policy thread.

    What you cannot do is call another poster stupid or refer to Ryan as "baldy" or keep posting the same thing in multiple threads to the level that it constitutes trolling. This is all spelled out very clearly in the policy thread, and I have very little sympathy for posters who obviously have ignored us when we begged them to just read and follow the TD policy.
    Well said and I'm bolding this paragraph because it's so bloody easy to understand, yet we still get flak for enforcing it.

    This isn't difficult, folks. We don't care if you're pro-Ryan, anti-Ryan, pro-Gardy, anti-Gardy, pro-trees, or anti-trees.

    What matters is that you do not insult other posters and that you do not take your personal pet topics into every thread you enter. We don't care where you stand on the subject, only that you argue your opinion in a way that doesn't detract from the conversation or the forum at large.

  7. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    There have been, by far, more "Anti-Ryan" posters infracted and/or banned from this site than the aforementioned "Pro" club could ever conceive of experiencing.

    Your problems have been entirely the delivery of your messages. That is no one else's fault but your own. Not some perceived double standard, not the anti-crowd, not the moderation staff.
    Until Thanksgiving, the anti-Ryan group was at least 10 times larger than the handful of Ryan supporters. I have no problem conceiving the much larger group would receive more infractions and bans than the much smaller group.

    I'm late to the dance here, on what has become a rather lengthy thread, that doesn't seem to want to go away. I was not anywhere near the first to bring up the members only mentality, double standards, or favoritism. I'm merely adding my me too.

    Let's see if the mods can step up to the plate this year, or if a hornet's nest is more comfortable for the members only club.
    Last edited by howieramone; 02-10-2014 at 09:42 AM.

  8. #167
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    What matters is ... that you do not take your personal pet topics into every thread you enter.
    For me, this part is probably the most difficult because the poster may see a connection between his/her "pet topic" and the posted thread that isn't readily apparent to the moderator. And it may well be based on a small side comment in someone else's comment.

    The lesson from that is, I guess, to consider the overall message/content of the thread rather than to take off on a particular comment (especially a minor point of someone else's comment).

    On the plus side, I do want to thank TD for regulating language. I'll on occasion use something like "put b*tts in the seat" -- I'm not sure putting in the u would violate the policy, it's just the way I've always posted.

    But as we've been in college BB season (and my beloved Hawkeyes are actually relevant again), I've been reading a wider variety of sites. I hope to never see the "F word" again. For any young posters here who may use it on other sites, it really has lost any impact value when one can't read two sentences without it being used.

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  10. #168
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post

    Let's see if the mods can step up to the plate this year, or if a hornet's nest is more comfortable for the members only club.
    Avoiding the hornet's nest is much easier when all posters familiarize themselves with and follow the comment policy. The comment policy is the basis for which deletions and infraction points are handed out, not one's individual opinion.

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  12. #169
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    Let's see if the mods can step up to the plate this year, or if a hornet's nest is more comfortable for the members only club.
    It's a two way street. Every moderator at Twins Daily works their ass off and deliberates constantly over rules, violations, when to take action, and when to "let it slide".

    The same cannot be said for many posters. If you want the moderators to step up their game, it's only fair that the moderators demand the same accountability for the posting community.

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  14. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    For me, this part is probably the most difficult because the poster may see a connection between his/her "pet topic" and the posted thread that isn't readily apparent to the moderator. And it may well be based on a small side comment in someone else's comment.

    The lesson from that is, I guess, to consider the overall message/content of the thread rather than to take off on a particular comment (especially a minor point of someone else's comment).
    We let a ton of comments slide that could derail a thread. I'm a firm believer in the fluidity of threads and that, by nature, a lengthy thread will evolve into different topics once the original has run its course.

    That's not really what we're talking about, though... We rarely take action against an off-topic post until we see a poster make repeated, non-stop attempts to derail multiple threads in the forum.

    Talking about Ryan's refusal/inability to spend to Perceived Spending Threshold X in a Terry Ryan thread is fine. Taking that topic to another thread about the front office on occasion is probably okay, too.

    But when we see the same poster make the same comment in five different threads, two of them unrelated to Terry Ryan and/or the front office, that's when we roll our eyes and are forced to take action.

    It's a tough call to make and yes, posters are going to feel unfairly targeted at times... But they have to take accountability for their own actions. We have clearly outlined the rules multiple times. Any time a poster makes an attempt to derail a thread and/or inject a pet argument into the forum, they risk deletion of that comment. It doesn't mean their comment will be deleted every time but the post runs risk of deletion and they have no right to complain about it if it happens... They're the ones clearly in violation of the rules, not the moderators for enforcing those rules.

    In short, there are some posters that could do well for themselves by taking on a little accountability for their own actions instead of blaming the moderators for enforcing rules that they didn't make.

    If you don't like the rules, feel free to complain to me any time. I'm one of the people who made a large portion of those rules. Don't take it out on the moderators.

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  16. #171
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    Vigorous discussion to be sure, much of it centered around pro and anti Terry Ryan posts which is understandable. And not much on pro and anti ownership. There is a large group of people that think ownership is merely feathering their own nest without doing a thing to better the product on the field. Is this valid or not and furthermore does it belong in this forum? I believe moderators should take a close look at this now and in the future.

  17. #172
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy10 View Post
    Vigorous discussion to be sure, much of it centered around pro and anti Terry Ryan posts which is understandable. And not much on pro and anti ownership. There is a large group of people that think ownership is merely feathering their own nest without doing a thing to better the product on the field. Is this valid or not and furthermore does it belong in this forum? I believe moderators should take a close look at this now and in the future.
    The same rules apply to everyone employed by the Twins, including ownership. If you remain respectful to the people themselves (ie. no cheapshot insults) and keep the pro- or anti- comments to relevant threads, we have no issues with people dogging Twins ownership.

    Hell, I'll admit it now. I've hated Twins ownership for years. Still hate it.

  18. #173
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    Should we or should we not be critics of the owners as regards how they handle their finances in respect to how much they merely pocket and how much they put back into the organization. And is it really our business as fans to do so? Or if we are displeased with how they are financing or not financing the team should we instead of criticize merely stay away from Target Field?

  19. #174
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    I don't see anything wrong with voicing one's opinion on how they feel the Pohlads should run the team. As long as those opinions are relevant to the topic at hand and avoid personal insults it's a worthwhile discussion.

    It's when, as Brock states, those opinions find there way into every thread involving the Twins that it becomes unacceptable.

  20. #175
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    Should the issue of a new ballpark built for them and they promising to spend more money on the team instead of pocketing it for the most part be addressed? To me this is huge but does it impugn their intent? Murky stuff here, even moral issues in my mind. When they promised to spend more money on the roster and then cut payroll what are the fans to think? It can hardly be had both ways, can it?

  21. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    As long as those opinions are relevant to the topic at hand and avoid personal insults it's a worthwhile discussion.
    And in particular, if you feel a topic hasn't been examined sufficiently, starting a new thread about it is a way to guarantee that at least your opinions will be relevant. I can imagine the mods needing to delete a thread if it violates the other standards such as minimal respect, but in practice I can't remember the last time I even debated internally whether a new thread required moderator action. (Except commercial Spam, not an issue here.)

  22. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy10 View Post
    Should the issue of a new ballpark built for them and they promising to spend more money on the team instead of pocketing it for the most part be addressed? To me this is huge but does it impugn their intent? Murky stuff here, even moral issues in my mind. When they promised to spend more money on the roster and then cut payroll what are the fans to think? It can hardly be had both ways, can it?
    OK, seriously, are you just playing around here? The related issues you've raised are interesting, but the previous two have already been answered from the perspective of moderation, and this one is clearly the same.

    If you were to raise a serious topic in a new thread, you can expect the moderators to use discretion and allow sufficient leeway to discuss it like adults. If you abuse this leeway, or post in every thread "wah, teh Poladzes are teh cheap!", then expect the discretion to be used in the other direction.
    Last edited by ashburyjohn; 02-10-2014 at 11:44 AM.

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  24. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy10 View Post
    Should the issue of a new ballpark built for them and they promising to spend more money on the team instead of pocketing it for the most part be addressed? To me this is huge but does it impugn their intent? Murky stuff here, even moral issues in my mind. When they promised to spend more money on the roster and then cut payroll what are the fans to think? It can hardly be had both ways, can it?
    Again, you have every right to address this. You can create a thread addressing it, or as threads are created where this topic is relevant, absolutely.

    I'm not sure if you frequented TD last July, but where this particular issue turned into a hornets nest was when a few posters decided to hijack every other thread with this stuff. This was in my pre-moderator days, but I'd go to the minor league forum to read up on what Miguel Sano was doing (or something like that) only to find these same posters derailing those threads (and very rarely was it respectful conversation). It made it real difficult to continue posting here. Admins of the site were publicly complaining that they didn't like going to the forums on their own site. There's nothing healthy about it.

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  26. #179
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    To be clear, most of the moderators are split on the pro-anti crowd just as most of the board is. If you are curious about me, I wanted Gardy let go this offseason. I was of the opinion that Ryan needed to hang around for another year or two as he is the right guy to do a rebuild and then it would be his time to go due to his refusal to do the FA thing (though this offseason has changed that with me). I don't care for the Pohlads, hate Bud Selig, and can see both sides of the argument on the FA spending/lack thereof debate.

    I've moderated individuals on both sides of the debate, most of which has had to do with posters refusing to make their arguments in a respectful manner. There's no reason why anyone would need to refer to Selig as "Pud Selig", Ryan as "Curly", Gardy as "that fat garden gnome", or the GB Packers as "peckers", and while some of these might be funny, and I might share that disdain, I don't think it's unreasonble for the admins and site owners to expect people to be able to voice their opinion in a way that doesn't make them come across as childish and immature. I get the humor aspect of things, and I agree that this is where the line gets muddied. Dave's post is a good example of that.

    Bottom line though. This is their site. It isn't my site, it's theirs. If the guys that run this site want people to behave in this manner, then so be it.

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  28. #180
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Lol Pud Selig.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- L. Harvey Oswald


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