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Thread: 2014 HoF ballot

  1. #181
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    I really don't understand why what Dan LeBatard did is any worse than the idiots who intentionally make horrible voting choices and publicize it to make their names more visible to the public.

    "Mediocre breaking balls are a gift from God." - Kirby Puckett

  2. #182
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    My thoughts, whatever they're worth

    - I don't get all the 'I feel sorry for Craig Biggio' comments. Dude is on the ballot for the second year, and he's two votes shy of enshrinement. He's getting in, maybe next year, maybe the year after that, but he's in. It would be unprecedented for a player that close to enshrinement, that early in his eligibility, to not get in. Maybe if he dies before next year's ballot is tallied I'll change my tune, but I don't see any reason to feel sorry for Biggio.

    - I also don't get the 'why did you waste your vote on Jacque Jones' (or Armando Benitez, or whomever) hate. These guys are on the ballot. They've earned their place on the ballot. If someone is on the ballot, you should be able to vote for them. To say that Jones doesn't deserve votes is to say that he doesn't deserve to be on the ballot, which is both false and stupid.

    - Lastly, Morris. I've long said that I have no problem with Morris being the guy you have to be better than in order to get into the Hall of Fame as a starting pitcher. Somebody has to be that guy, and Morris actually makes a very good signpost for a number of different reasons. With that said, I have no doubt that he'll still end up getting into the Hall -- he's just going to have to wait another 5 years until he's eligible for the Veterans Committee ballot, at which point he's in. Morris is about as perfect a Vets candidate as can be imagined ('greatness' not reflected in stats, we knew he was a competitor, etc.).

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  4. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by dwintheiser View Post
    - - Lastly, Morris. I've long said that I have no problem with Morris being the guy you have to be better than in order to get into the Hall of Fame as a starting pitcher. Somebody has to be that guy, and Morris actually makes a very good signpost for a number of different reasons. With that said, I have no doubt that he'll still end up getting into the Hall -- he's just going to have to wait another 5 years until he's eligible for the Veterans Committee ballot, at which point he's in. Morris is about as perfect a Vets candidate as can be imagined ('greatness' not reflected in stats, we knew he was a competitor, etc.).
    Actually to me Jim Kaat is that guy not Morris. Kaat who was arguably the greatest fielding pitching of my lifetime has more wins than Morris or even Bert. He is the guy with the most wins not in the HOF. But I agree with you--somebody has to be that guy. I am OK with Morris missing--to me he was borderline. But that means that Schilling and Mussina don't get in either--which look possible.

  5. #184
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    Biggio will get in barring some dormant steroid scandal emerges. Craig Biggio wating three years isn't some crime, not everyone gets in right away. Harmon Killebrew had to wait three or four years after all.

    Piazza looks to be getting in but I don't think most voters who kept him off the ballot did so because of "backne." They likely didn't vote for him because he admitted to reporters off the record that he used PED's and teammate Reggie Jefferson confirmed that he did. It is strange he is getting a pass. I wonder what happens if the spotlight is shinning brighter on him next year if some of these things get more scrutinized. Pudge Rodriquez will likely be in the same boat when eligible.

    Also fan voting sounds like a terrible idea to me. It would be like an MTV awards ceremony, the most popular get in. Bernie Williams, Paul O'Neil and Tino Martinez would have been in on the first ballot and Blyleven would be waiting for the veterans commitee.
    Last edited by nicksaviking; 01-09-2014 at 10:38 AM.

  6. #185
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MWLFan View Post
    We can go around and around on the PED guys. Those who believe that Bonds-Clemen were a Hall of Famers before they decided to up their performance beyond normal human mean. Those folks are right. On the other side what truely set Clemens and Bonds on Olympus from the rest of the humans playing baseball was how they were able to perform at a high level into the "twilights" of their careers. How they defied the ravages of time that a majority of baseball players face in their mid to late 30's and then into their 40's was truely amazing, and the thought it that it may have had a little to do with what they were sticking into their bodies does linger. So people who look at them as tainted in their later, yet quite prolific, years are skeptical of the level of greatness they achieved. McGwire and the others are in a different category for me. Very good, but a bit of one trick ponies in some cases. (Yeah McGwire beat Hrbek for a Gold Glove one time, that doesn't make him a great asset in the field.) So I see validity in both arguements and respect where both groups are coming from and in the end have to side with one.

    My Ballot.

    Maddux-Best pitcher of his generation in my mind. (Including pre Roids Clemens.)
    Glavine
    Thomas
    Biggio
    Raines
    Piazza
    *Bagwell
    *Walker
    *Trammel

    * Not all together on board with these guys, but would vote for them. I could go either way.

    In the end for me it is the Hubris of Clemens and Bonds that holds me back. To take what greatness they already possesed and then doubled down on it to put themselves on such levels out of what looks to me as personal fits of ego. It is one thing to train and work harder to cheat time and baseball history, it is another to find this in a bottle and go beyond the scope of the natural human experience. This is just how I feel, I know that it is contary to others and I am fine with that.

    On a side note. Is it time to go out into the wilderness and bring Pete Rose back into the fold. Has his punishment been long enough and is it now time to say we may not fully forgive you and you still cannot work in baseball because we don't trust you, but you were one of the greatest to play the game and we want to honor that legacy on the field. I say this as someone who has never been for letting him into the Hall. But could a accomadation be made in his lifetime?
    You threw me with that final paragraph. Do you think Rose should be in the Hall?

  7. #186
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    Le Batard just got banned for life from voting and he cannot attend games as credentialed media for a year.

    "Mediocre breaking balls are a gift from God." - Kirby Puckett

  8. #187
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kydoty View Post
    Le Batard just got banned for life from voting and he cannot attend games as credentialed media for a year.
    Not quite. He is stripped off his BBWAA credentials (which open the doors to every ballpark.) He can still get press credentials but needs to get them directly from his workplace and from each team. Plenty of press people who cover baseball and are not BBWAA members.
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  9. #188
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    Most of the problems with some of the Hall of Fame voting is the Veterans and Old Timers committee. They inducted some players who don't belong there for various reasons such as the Tinkers, Evers and Chance trio and King Kelly among others. Some heavy lobbying goes on here.

  10. #189
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    I'm glad the BBWAA took Lebetard's vote away.

    Giving your vote away isn't the answer to anything.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

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  12. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    I'm glad the BBWAA took Lebetard's vote away.

    Giving your vote away isn't the answer to anything.
    ---Agreed. There's a lot to dislike about the current voting process. (Reading some of these dunderheads' explanations of their ballots, yikes.)

    But Lebtard's Deadspin stunt was a lot like Chris Kluwe's last week - a childish, self-indulgent, attention-seeking tantrum masquerading as a fight against injustice.

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  14. #191
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    The BBWAA revoked the wrong guy's credentials.

  15. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikecgrimes View Post
    I don't totally throw out the post steroid use stats but in my mind McGwire and Sosa were not anywhere near a path to the hall. McGwire was basically Josh Willingham from 27 years old on, and Sosa was basically Jason Kubel. Bonds belongs in the Ruth Mays Ted Williams wing of the Hall it is insane to vote Thomas in and not Bonds.
    I have no idea what you mean here. They were juicing but McGwire and Sosa were twice the players that Willy and Kubel were.

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  17. #193
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    I like to think I'm pretty tolerant of different opinions and consider the zone of reasonable disagreement to be enormous. But reading through some of these ballot explanations, Good Lord. If you're either unable or unwilling to submit a ballot that can by supported by at least a small measure of facts, logic and common sense, you shouldn't be voting.

    A couple of highlights, or lowlights as it were:

    This buffoon, who said "I refuse to vote for a guy who cheats, as Biggio did with all that armor on his arm, so he could get hit with pitches and trot to first base as a result", but also voted for McGwire, Bonds and Clemens because they "had the numbers long before they juiced". Putting aside how completely illogical that is, consider that McGwire admitted to first taking steroids before the 1990 season. So basically he's saying that McGwire's numbers from his first 3 years in the majors were HOF-worthy.

    Then we have Mark Purdy, who looks at each year's ballot as a "separate election" and votes for the 3 or 4 best. So Biggio got his vote last year, but not this year. Is there anyone on earth besides Mark Purdy who thinks this make sense on any level? Look at the ridiculous results this produces.

    Question: Is Craig Biggio a Hall-of-Famer?

    Answers:


    • 74.8% - yes
    • 25.1% - no
    • Mark Purdy - Umm, I dunno, maybe, it depends on who else is on the ballot


    And then there's Larry Rocca. His ballot: Trammell, Nomo, Raines and Morris. Looks like something that was the product of eenie-meenie-minie-moe. At least the Deadspin ballot was defensible.

    Ken Rosenthal was dead on when he said that there were "too many crappy ballots" submitted.

  18. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    The BBWAA revoked the wrong guy's credentials.
    He basically asked for it by publicly going about it the way he did but they shouldn't have stopped there.

  19. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwintheiser View Post
    - I don't get all the 'I feel sorry for Craig Biggio' comments. Dude is on the ballot for the second year, and he's two votes shy of enshrinement. He's getting in, maybe next year, maybe the year after that, but he's in. It would be unprecedented for a player that close to enshrinement, that early in his eligibility, to not get in. Maybe if he dies before next year's ballot is tallied I'll change my tune, but I don't see any reason to feel sorry for Biggio.
    ---Well, while missing the HOF by 2 votes it not like being diagnosed with terminal cancer, I don't think it's that hard to see why some folks feel he got the shaft and feel a bit bad for him.

    To me his HOF case involves a lot of what's wrong with HOF voting - worthy players being kept out for no good reason.

    A bunch of people didn't vote for him last year because of the "first-ballot HOFer" thing, which is silly and illogical. It's little more than blind deference to tradition, or egotistical voters who want to make it about them and not the players.

    Then he lost votes this year because of the arbitrary 10-vote limit.

    And some won't vote for him over steroid suspicions, which are based solely on vague gossip and innuendo. Basically, it boils down the idea that he had teammates that were using PED's, so he might have been too. It will be interesting to see what these folks do when Jeter is eligible because by that logic, he shouldn't be in either.

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