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Thread: Was Terry Ryan Right About Correia?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcrow View Post
    You act like he had a huge dip in ERA, it was 4.18 last season. That's less than half a run.
    Granted, pitchers generally do better in the NL than the AL, but he's had 3 season better than last years so it's not really that shocking.
    So in the 3 years he did better , he had 100 games played and only 15 starts?
    and thats your arguement? he was better as a reliever?

  2. #62
    Senior Member Triple-A mcrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    We can' t have it both ways. We can't give Ryan credit for Correia, who was better than expected (but that topped out at about average) and then not be critical of the fact that he wasn't able to build anything but the worst rotation in baseball.

    I expected Correia to be worse, so I admit I was wrong. But many of us were correct about the results of the rotation as a whole. Correia was a success, but one in a season of many, many other failures, including a debacle at the CF position.
    These are two different arguments.

    There is an argument about Correia and one about the rotation as a whole. He was right about Correia, not so much about the rotation but then Saunders and Marcum didn't workout where they went and we knew the Twins were not going to be in on the bigger names. We will have to see how this year goes because a lot of what they didn't do last off season may have played a role in what they're doing so far this off season.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Reider View Post
    I'm fine either way. The Twins don't need to sign another pitcher to prove to me that they are serious about improving the team. I'd be just fine if Gibson took the bull by the horns and showed that he's MLB ready. And Deduno has proven that he's good enough to pitch at the MLB level.

    I'm just curious how Worely is penciled into the rotation instead of Deduno? I'm actually curious as to why Deduno wasn't mentioned at all? If you don't think he will be healthy in 2014, that is my concern as well, but he proved that he's good enough to hold a roster spot if he is going to be healthy.
    Touche, sir! I blanked with replying with my analysis. Thanks for catching it. Deduno is already in.

    It just means the team is going to have to make some very interesting decisions going forward. Who do they keep and who do they try to trade or let go? We'll all be watching closely.

  4. #64
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    Mr. Mcrow , lets agree to disagree, hope you have a nice night ...btw I really hope Terry is right this year , even if he is wrong on Hughes, I cant say I told you so...cause Phil was my pick to click having the Korreia affect .....

  5. #65
    I never had a problem with it. Wanted the Twins to do more though. Like I stated last year.... $5mil don't get you Cy Young in today's game. It gets you Kevin Correia.

    I also felt at times Gardy left him to die on the vine. Might have saved him 4-6 earned runs. But I have my own beliefs on certain types of pitchers and hitter adjustments after a few times through the lineup.

  6. #66
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    Just curious, if KC is bad this year, and others he could have signed last year are good, will you all come back and say he was wrong? I really don't care, it's water under the bridge, but people do seem to have some need to point out when he's right or wrong.
    Lighten up Francis....

  7. #67
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by panolo View Post
    I also felt at times Gardy left him to die on the vine. Might have saved him 4-6 earned runs. But I have my own beliefs on certain types of pitchers and hitter adjustments after a few times through the lineup.
    You have a point there. Gardy often needed to leave him out there longer than he probably should have because none of the other starters were giving him innings and the bullpen was getting beat up early. On a better staff, you can just pull him after six innings and two earned runs because the other guys are taking their share of the innings load.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    You have a point there. Gardy often needed to leave him out there longer than he probably should have because none of the other starters were giving him innings and the bullpen was getting beat up early. On a better staff, you can just pull him after six innings and two earned runs because the other guys are taking their share of the innings load.
    To be fair, that's probably on TR too. Whatever he did, he didn't really get health or durability last offseason.

  9. #69
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    To be fair, that's probably on TR too. Whatever he did, he didn't really get health or durability last offseason.
    I don't think anyone is blaming that on Gardy and if they are, it's a foolish point to make.

    The 2013 rotation was awful and the bullpen was horribly overexposed. Correia was the one guy who pitched somewhat reliably through the entire season. If I was manager, I'd try to flog him a bit as well, hoping to catch lightning in a bottle more often than not and save the bullpen any innings I could over the course of a season.

    If Kevin Correia is at 6 IP, 3 ER, I'm leaving him in there because there's a good chance the guy yesterday lit himself on fire after 3 1/3 innings and the guy tomorrow might disintegrate in the second inning.

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  11. #70
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    Correia had a decent season, on a pretty insignificant contract (not much over league average salary, for just two years). No problem with it in isolation, at the time or now.

    But he was the most "expensive" pitcher we signed, and arguably the only healthy one. Regardless of the process (whether he was motivated by cheapness, or cheapness was a result of a lack of good options), TR went cheap on fixing the rotation last offseason and overall it didn't work -- a bad rotation stayed bad. Correia kept it from getting worse, I guess.

    Good to see him actively and seriously participating in the FA market this winter, possibly for the first time ever. It's going to be a lot more interesting to debate his offseason moves now that we've moved beyond the money issue.

  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I don't think anyone is blaming that on Gardy and if they are, it's a foolish point to make.

    The 2013 rotation was awful and the bullpen was horribly overexposed. Correia was the one guy who pitched somewhat reliably through the entire season. If I was manager, I'd try to flog him a bit as well, hoping to catch lightning in a bottle more often than not and save the bullpen any innings I could over the course of a season.

    If Kevin Correia is at 6 IP, 3 ER, I'm leaving him in there because there's a good chance the guy yesterday lit himself on fire after 3 1/3 innings and the guy tomorrow might disintegrate in the second inning.
    Agreed on the Gardy thing.

    On the original point, Correia just equaled his career best in starter ERA+ and basically equaled it in IP too (at least IP per GS).

    If Correia deserves any "adjustment" because he would have been better with a decreased IP load, basically the same adjustment would be valid for any starting pitcher in MLB and thus becomes pretty meaningless.

    He had a average-ish season on an average-ish contract. That has value, as we've learned so painfully the last few years; let's just appreciate it for what it was (and what it hopefully can be in 2014 too).

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  14. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Twins Cap View Post
    You might have to wait a long time to get the posters on this board to admit they were wrong about Correia. Not to mention TR. And there were a lot of complainers. Holy Cow did people bitch last year about that signing. "The second year! It kills us. One year Ok, but not two. At that price. 5 Mil!"

    But, the jury is still out. Correia has to perform this year. But, to get innings at that cost, it looks pretty good right now.

    Just goes to show, the Gleemans, the Bonnes, the guys who know it all, "My God, they have statistics to show us how stupid" -- even they eat crow once in awhile. Although they do it quietly, and with no one watching. Bon appetit, amigos...
    The complaints were predicated on Ryan's obvious failure to make good on his promise to focus and fix the Starting Rotation and Correia ending up the "prize" acquisition. Ryan went into complete hibernation after December 15....his face was on milk cartons as late-FA-signees like Lohse and Marcum went to other teams unopposed by Ryan (Ryan can't be called "brilliant" for somehow "knowing" that Marcum would sustain an injury unrelated to his previous one in 2012). In addition, Ryan had not one, but two shots at claiming Todd Redmond, FOR FREE. Further, he did nothing to acquire a major-league experienced Center Fielder, I'm sure the pitching staff appreciated that complete lack of effort or concern about the potential downside to that situation, as well.

    To sum up, even though KC happily outperformed the (low) expectations for him (as previously documented, Correia also had the good fortune of his starting schedule, cleaning up on many of the weaker teams which made up the majority of his starts)....

    this still represents a failure on the part of Terry Ryan in his inability and or pig-headed and obstinate State of Denial to properly assess how truly feeble and weak his various SP options were.....

    you need no further proof than last week's signings.....

    when Ryan finally bowed to the 21st Century realities of major league baseball. (Better late than never, TR, Bravo!)
    Last edited by jokin; 12-03-2013 at 11:08 AM.

  15. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcrow View Post
    These are two different arguments.

    There is an argument about Correia and one about the rotation as a whole. He was right about Correia, not so much about the rotation but then Saunders and Marcum didn't workout where they went and we knew the Twins were not going to be in on the bigger names. We will have to see how this year goes because a lot of what they didn't do last off season may have played a role in what they're doing so far this off season.
    I understand your reason for calling it two different arguments, but I disagree. It's just incredibly selective to say people should somehow applaud the one move he made that was successful (in terms of money) while there were other moves (and lack thereof) that hurt the team.

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