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Thread: Rotation for 2014

  1. #21
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    If we can get Sulbaran for Butera, there must be other decent prospects we can get who don't need to be on the 40-man roster. We need to clear space and remove guys without options.

    What TR needs to do in the next 2 weeks -

    Trade Worley to the NL for a prospect or two, he's more well suited to that league. Trade Duensing and put Diamond in his place in the bullpen. Trade Swarzak and put Hendricks in his spot in the bullpen. Trade Burton or Fien with the remaining guy taking over as setup guy. Leaving the bullpen looking like this: Perkins; Burton/Fien; Diamond; Hendricks; Theilbar; Tonkin; and one other. (Pick from Pressly/Oliveros/Ibarra or if we pick up another starter maybe Deduno). Rotation should be Nolasco; Hughes; Correia (untill he's traded at the deadline with Meyer taking his place); Deduno and Gibson. As I said slip Deduno into the pen if we sign another starter (unless the starter is Pelfrey, then let Pelfrey and Deduno fight it out).

    If we do pick up AJ in the next 2 weeks, immediately trade Doumit, he becomes superfluous. AJ and Pinto would platoon with Herrmann as additional backup.

  2. #22
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    To those who want Diamond as a LH reliever, lefties have hit him better than righties. Just throwing that out there.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by crapforks View Post
    To those who want Diamond as a LH reliever, lefties have hit him better than righties. Just throwing that out there.

    Same with Duensing this year. R/L Splits - BA .263/.303; OPS .713/.786
    He also gave up more homers and RBI's against lefties. Just sayin'

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyB View Post
    Same with Duensing this year. R/L Splits - BA .263/.303; OPS .713/.786
    He also gave up more homers and RBI's against lefties. Just sayin'
    Not terribly encouraging, but the three year split (via espn) has Diamond worse against lefties and Duenseng better. FWIW. scary stuff.

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/splits.../scott-diamond
    http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/splits...brian-duensing

  5. #25
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Comparing Diamond to Duensing is naive. Duesing hits 94 mph with his fastball and pops it up to 96-97 (ok Hammond stadium radar for the last figure). He also has a pretty nasty slider for lefties. Diamond's FB sits in the high 80s and low 90s if the wind blows the right way, and he is trying to get hitters out with his curve. Totally different pitchers. If one wants to replace Thielbar with Diamond, that might make sense.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyB View Post
    Same with Duensing this year. R/L Splits - BA .263/.303; OPS .713/.786
    He also gave up more homers and RBI's against lefties. Just sayin'
    The number of AB vs lefties and righties was not much different, so I'm not shocked at this. I would hazard to guess that he was left in to face more good LH batters than RHB because he is a lefty. He does have a nearly 4x better K/BB ratio against LHB. He is much more likely to be successful as a LOOGY than Diamond.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor0333 View Post
    What I expect:
    Nolasco, Hughes, Corriea, Deduno, Gibson

    Perkins, Fien, Burton, Swarzak, Duensing, Diamond, Theilbar.
    This is what I expect also except that Worley will be in the pen instead of Duensing. To me Worley has bullpen written all over him as a pitcher.

    It could be Johnson instead of Gibson in the rotation if he has a better showing in Spring Training, which could happen. Johnson pitched out of the bullpen some in AAA last year, I think he even recorded a save, so he could end up there if Diamond were to be the one to earn a spot in ST (I don't expect that to happen). Duensing must go.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Comparing Diamond to Duensing is naive. Duesing hits 94 mph with his fastball and pops it up to 96-97 (ok Hammond stadium radar for the last figure). He also has a pretty nasty slider for lefties. Diamond's FB sits in the high 80s and low 90s if the wind blows the right way, and he is trying to get hitters out with his curve. Totally different pitchers. If one wants to replace Thielbar with Diamond, that might make sense.
    Duensing was awful last year and I don't think he threw as hard as a starter, neither did Perkins. It might be the case that Diamond would throw harder as a reliever too (might). Most pitchers' game is a little different out of the pen than it is as a starter. That Diamond is taller than Duensing might be an advantage because he can better angle his pitches on a downward plane. My only point being you won't really be able to asses Diamond as a bullpen pitcher until he's done it. Johnson could be a bullpen lefty also. I know TR said he got him to add starting depth, but he did pitch out of the bullpen some last year.

  9. #29
    If Worley is healthy I expect him to make the team and contribute as the 4th or 5th. I'm convinced he was never healthy. He has had some success at this level and knows what it will take.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Comparing Diamond to Duensing is naive. Duesing hits 94 mph with his fastball and pops it up to 96-97 (ok Hammond stadium radar for the last figure). He also has a pretty nasty slider for lefties. Diamond's FB sits in the high 80s and low 90s if the wind blows the right way, and he is trying to get hitters out with his curve. Totally different pitchers. If one wants to replace Thielbar with Diamond, that might make sense.
    I believe trading Duensing at this point to big a big mistake. Further, I believe trading virtually any of our relievers to be a mistake. The Twins had one of the best overall bullpens in the league last year. They look all the better when you look a the workload they were given. A healthier and bolstered rotation this year not only makes the overall team better, but the bullpen better as well.

    There is potentially excellent depth as well when one considers available options to be called up due to injury or in effectiveness bugs biting. Pressley, Tonkin, Achter, Albers, Ibarra, Dean, Diamond and the newly acquired Johnson are some of the names who could fill rolls, find a roll, progress, etc. this year. But they are not yet a known quantity. Why dismantle something that works, is strong, could be stronger, and elevates the quality of the team in its entirety?

    Now if spring, or early season, proves that someone is ready to step up, that changes the complexion of things.

    signing a veteran C is a must for this ball club. And whether its AJ, or Salt, or someone else, it is not a negative reflection of Pinto, but rather a statement saying we want to be better, we don't have Mauer or his second coming, and Pinto, despite talent and potential, is still a little raw and inexperienced.

    The Twins still have plenty of money to spend on said C, even the rumored potential signing of Salt, and could STILL add a smart piece or two. Depth of talent is a good thing. And a quality veteran C AND Pinto is again no negative reflection on Pinto as a prospect, and gives the team even greater talent depth and flexibility.

    Keep the bullpen depth and talent strong as is, at least for now. That and a better rotation is a good thing. Don't weaken yourself unnecessarily. And depth in the rotation is also good. Guys get hurt, and under-perform. Last year we thought Worley was a good acquire, and he might yet be, a year removed and fully healthy. And what if a fresh start this year, right in the head and heart and elbow, Diamond reverts back to a healthy 2012 version of himself?

    As I have stated in another thread, Gibson starting the season would not be a bad thing. Now, I want him up, and I believe he can be and I hope he is. But if someone comes roaring back, and we want Gibson to get consistent innings and starts to begin the year, would that be so aweful? Perhaps he warms up with consistent production in Rochester, then comes up a month in with someone getting hurt, or Correia getting traded.

    And despite a lack of active rumors, I believe the Twins will soon sign that veteran C, I hope one decent LH bat who can plat a little third, (Tracy?), and I still think, to improve depth and options (even trade options) the Twins will still sign another starting pitcher. It might be Pelfrey. Would thar be a bad thing? A veteran SP gaining more strength and endurance a year plus removed from surgery who actually pitched quite well the second half of last season before running out go gas? Or a possible flyer on Johan or Floyd. Even if neither is ready to start the season, what if they are ready a month or so in? What if Johan is 75%the pitcher he once was? For 1M plus some incentives, wouldn't that be worth watching and help bolster the staff?

    The point is we've already improved, we have options, depth isn't a bad thing to have, and don't trade from a strength just for the sake of trading. Same with our minor league talent. If TR can swing a great trade, awesome. But I'd rather hoard what we have for now, and trade later.

    In no particular order, our rotation is 3/5th set as of now: Nolasco, Hughes and Correia. Deduno is a virtual lock if healthy based n stuff, what he did last year, and even what the Twins have seemed to indicate. And boy do I hope he is 100% because he's fun to watch, and was REALLY good last year when he felt right.

    That leaves one spot left, (possibly 2 depending) for Gibson (immediately or a month or so in), Worley (healthy and a season removed to reclaim what he's shown in the past), Diamond (ditto) and possibly a flyer ( even if not ready to start the year).

    3 or 4 set, one flyer nursing himself, one with options in the wings, a couple guys n the comeback trail, and the almost inevitable pulled muscle or twinge somewhere buying time.

    In short, depth is good, in case I didn't say that enough. Lol There may be room to start the year for just about everyone.

    Sorry for being so long-winded.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    So unless the Twins are going to make a run at Garza, Santana, or Tanaka, they should be all over that IMO. It would sure beat watching Pedro Hernandez pitch again.
    PLEASE- no Tanaka! The posting system (still in limbo) gives me the willies. Don't think anybody will touch him with a 10-foot pole until it's sorted out, and even then, expect overpay. A 2-shoulder-capsules-later Santana? Nah. Garza.
    F5, then post.

  12. #32
    I'll settle for no less than a 2014 rotation of:

    1- Ricky Nolasco
    2- Phil Hughes
    3- Kevin Mulvey
    4- Phillip Humber
    5- Deolis Guerra

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  14. #33
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    I'm not completely against signing Pelfrey or another FA. Can you ever have too much pitching? Obviously, Nolasco/Hughes/Correia will make up 60% of the rotation, but I think people do forget that Worley has been successful in the ML and was coming off elbow surgery. Do NOT be surpised when he is named the 4th starter coming out of ST. Also, Deduno will be 31 in July and also wasn't 100% to end the season. Kyle Gibson will be given EVERY opportunity to win the 5th spot and Deduno will start in the bullpen. Thielbar will be sent back to AAA so Diamond doesn't have to be DFA'd. Twins carry 13 pitchers again.

    1 - Nolasco
    2 - Correia
    3 - Hughes
    4 - Worley
    5 - Gibson

    LRP - Swarzak
    MRP - Deduno
    MRP - Duensing (LH)
    MRP - Thielbar (LH) - AAA?
    MRP - Diamond (LH)
    MRP - Tonkin
    SU - Fien
    SU - Burton
    CL - Perkins

  15. #34
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siehbiscuit View Post
    Kyle Gibson will be given EVERY opportunity to win the 5th spot and Deduno will start in the bullpen.
    Guys like Deduno can't pitch from the pen. We need to put this idea to bed.

    Deduno's issue is that he has no idea where his fastball is going. It's also the reason he's somewhat unhittable at times.

    Which makes for an absolutely awful relief pitcher. He can't be brought into games with runners on base because there's a damned good chance he's just going to walk the first guy he faces.

  16. #35
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    First of all, we need to clear some room on the 40-man. If you look at our pitchers and realize that the new 40-man adds can't be removed, then take into consideration guys that are out of options, we are either going to lose some of these guys for nothing or have to trade some away.

    By my estimation, these are the pitchers that either will be on the team, should be on the team, or guys out of options: Nolasco; Hughes; Correia; Hendricks; Swarzak; Perkins; Burton; Fien; Duensing; Diamond; Worley; Deduno; Tonkin; Theilbar; Gibson; Pressley.
    That's 16 pitchers and unless we are going with no bench whatsoever, someone's got to go. Personally, I'm hoping with a stronger set of starters, that we can go with no larger than a 12-man pitching staff. That means four of these guys have to go and we might as well get something for them by trading them now rather than DFA'ing them during spring training and getting nothing.

  17. #36
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    On this thread and in others there is much talk about Deduno being part of the mix. Is there credible news on how his shoulder is recovering?

  18. #37
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    [QUOTE=Brock Beauchamp;182071]One or two of Duensing, Burton, Fien, Swarzak are traded.

    Hendriks, Deduno, Worley, Diamond, Johnson fight for two rotation spots and at least one more slides into the bullpen.

    [QUOTE]

    I could see the a trade of some of the bullpen arms, but I'd expect a trade of the back of the rotation arms is more likely simply because so many of them are out of options. I don't think Deduno gets moved and I don't think Hendriks or Johnson have any value, but I think Worley and Diamond may still be able to bring back a minimal return, there is still some memory of past accomplishments with those two.

  19. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    I could see the a trade of some of the bullpen arms, but I'd expect a trade of the back of the rotation arms is more likely simply because so many of them are out of options. I don't think Deduno gets moved and I don't think Hendriks or Johnson have any value, but I think Worley and Diamond may still be able to bring back a minimal return, there is still some memory of past accomplishments with those two.
    I don't think the return on either would be worth noting. Given the Twins 2013 rotation, the opposing GM would be saying "Why are you getting rid of a starter? Why would I give up anything for a guy who has been pushed out of MLB's worst rotation?"

  20. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Guys like Deduno can't pitch from the pen. We need to put this idea to bed.

    Deduno's issue is that he has no idea where his fastball is going. It's also the reason he's somewhat unhittable at times.

    Which makes for an absolutely awful relief pitcher. He can't be brought into games with runners on base because there's a damned good chance he's just going to walk the first guy he faces.
    It seems to me the effectively wild guys generally end up in the pen. For the record though, I think Deduno gets a rotation spot or starts the season on the DL.

  21. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    It seems to me the effectively wild guys generally end up in the pen. For the record though, I think Deduno gets a rotation spot or starts the season on the DL.
    From what I've seen in the past, effectively wild pitchers usually have *some* ability to control their fastball. It's their secondary pitches that cause wildness... Secondary pitches that they're often able to jettison (or, at the very least, throw less often) in the bullpen.

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