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Thread: Berrios: starter or reliever

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    Berrios: starter or reliever

    Why so many people already projecting him to be a reliever?

  2. #2
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    Probably because he's short. I would be interested if there was anything based on his stuff.

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    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    Probably because he's short. I would be interested if there was anything based on his stuff.
    I've only heard it mentioned in regards to his size. Understandably, it has been questioned whether his frame can hold up to multiple 200+ inning seasons as a starter.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Triple-A B Richard's Avatar
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    It's not entirely unreasonable to question whether his body can hold up, but the kid had a phenomenal work ethic. I recall watching several videos around the time of the draft showcasing his workouts- he himself has reiterated the importance of durability. He appears incredibly fit and dedicated to maintaining physical excellence. I would think this puts him slightly ahead of other short pitchers in terms of starting rotation probability.
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    Short?

    He is 6'0" and still 19.

    Can you count the Cy Young awards among these "short pitchers":

    Pedro Martinez 5'11"
    Tim Lincecum 5'11"
    Greg Maddux 6'0"
    Tom Glavine 6'0"
    Johan Santana 6'0"

    People say stuff because people say stuff and it is ridiculous to say stuff without qualifying it.

    Berrios might be a reliever not because he is short but because he has only one plus pitch (FB) one average pitch (change) and one mediocre pitch (slurve). If he does not develop at least an average breaking ball and improve his change, he will not be a starter. And his K% fell in half this season.

    These are the reasons that he may be a reliever. Not his height

    But he is just 19 and it is very likely that it will all work out.

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    I mentioned back when Seth did his top prospect list that I'm not AS high on Berrios. He got really fatigued last season and I am just not sure if he can make 200+ innings on a consistent bases without getting hurt. I hope I am wrong! With that said, I still have high hopes that he is in our rotation in 3-4 years and is able to contribute when healthy and fresh. I don't want him to switch to relief until it is absolutely necessary.

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    Senior Member Triple-A B Richard's Avatar
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    Last year was his first full-season of pitching-- it wasn't really shocking to see him fade towards the end of the year. With last year under his belt, he should be interesting to watch this year. Only time will tell, but I'm betting on him.
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    Yea for some reason Keith Law believes height has everything to do with long term success of Pitchers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    Probably because he's short. I would be interested if there was anything based on his stuff.
    Berrios 6 ft
    Tim Lincecom 5 11

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS View Post
    Yea for some reason Keith Law believes height has everything to do with long term success of Pitchers.
    Someone please remind Keith Law how tall Pedro Martinez was. He was one of the most dominate pitchers of his era.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darin617 View Post
    Someone please remind Keith Law how tall Pedro Martinez was. He was one of the most dominate pitchers of his era.
    exactly.

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    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    I'll see him as a reliever when he can no longer be a starter. Thus far, he's given little indication that he cannot do it. Thrylos hit the nail on the head with this one. The development of his secondary pitches will determine where he ends up. Until then, the kid starts.

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    Senior Member All-Star Jim Crikket's Avatar
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    Yeah, I don't know who the "so many people" are that you think are projecting him as a reliever already, but that's an absurd thing to project at this point. 2013 was a bizarre season for Berrios, with the WBC to leadoff his first full pro season. I'm not as down on his breaking ball as Thrylos is. I thought he used it very effectively through June and in to July, though he struggled to control it at times. The last few weeks, I thought he was clearly tired, but I don't think it had anything to do with his size.

    It's possible that any Class A pitcher may be a bullpen arm down the road, but I saw nothing about Berrios that would suggest to me he should be "projected" as a reliever already.
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    Senior Member All-Star Winston Smith's Avatar
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    Whitey Ford was 5-10, 175 and averaged 230 innings over 13 years. Guess he didn't know he was small.
    This comment brought to you from the Rosedale Mall studio by Hamm's Beer, brewed in the land of sky blue waters.

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    It's a legit concern. Everyone knows the Twins 6ft plus starters regularly throw 200 innings. Can't wait to see Alex Meyers. That skyscraper is sure to throw 500 innings.

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    Height, being too short or too tall by MLB pitcher standards, definitely does come into play. There is a reason scouts look for the ideal pitchers frame. Height effects fastball plane, durability, control, and pitch release just to name a few. Heck, when teams are looking to spend hundreds of thousands to millions of bucks on a player they look at everything. Height, make up, family blood lines, arm length, grades, and so on and so on. Does that mean that you can exceed if you don't have the ideal qualities? Of course not, but pointing at outliers doesn't mean Berrios will join them.

    Berrios has gotten and will continue to get every chance to be a starter. He is a solid prospect but a few height related concerns came into play this year.

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    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darin617 View Post
    Someone please remind Keith Law how tall Pedro Martinez was. He was one of the most dominate pitchers of his era.
    Quote Originally Posted by darin617 View Post
    Berrios 6 ft
    Tim Lincecom 5 11
    No one is saying that Berrios cannot be a starter just because of his height and build, they're saying that smaller guys have a harder time holding up over the course of a career.

    Tim Lincecum is an example that favors Law's point, not yours. He was a dominant pitcher for the first three years of his career.

    Since 2008, his average fastball has dropped from 94.0 to 90.2. Unsurprisingly, his performance during that time has gone from "best in league dominant" to "really bad".

    Sure, small guys can have success in the league. Pedro was a classic example of that happening. Johan held up... for awhile. But the odds are stacked against a small guy holding up compared to a guy who is 230 lbs and 6'4".

    People shouldn't take this as some kind of affront to Berrios. We all hope he succeeds... But there's a chance his smallish frame holds him back somewhat or forces a move to the bullpen.

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    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmb0252 View Post
    Height, being too short or too tall by MLB pitcher standards, definitely does come into play. There is a reason scouts look for the ideal pitchers frame. Height effects fastball plane, durability, control, and pitch release just to name a few. Heck, when teams are looking to spend hundreds of thousands to millions of bucks on a player they look at everything. Height, make up, family blood lines, arm length, grades, and so on and so on. Does that mean that you can exceed if you don't have the ideal qualities? Of course not, but pointing at outliers doesn't mean Berrios will join them.

    Berrios has gotten and will continue to get every chance to be a starter. He is a solid prospect but a few height related concerns came into play this year.
    Well stated. I wish people would understand that outliers are just that... OUTLIERS.

    Using Pedro Martinez to "prove" a point isn't going to convince anyone who is looking at the situation objectively because we all understand that Pedro Martinez was a freak of nature.

    No one here wants to see Berrios fail. Every report writes up the kid as being an incredible personality. A few of us are merely tempering our optimism based on historical evidence, nothing more.

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    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    Whitey Ford was 5-10, 175 and averaged 230 innings over 13 years. Guess he didn't know he was small.
    Yep, baseball is pretty much the same game it was 60 years ago.

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    Actually, it may resemble the game from 60 years ago more closely than the game 6 years ago!

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