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Thread: Parmelee Defense

  1. #1
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Parmelee Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Parmelee was a nice defensive outfielder. Good Arm... He plays the RF wall better than anyone and he has surprising range.

    He is multiple steps above Arcia... Doumit... Willingham and Colabello defensively.

    To group or imply that Parmelee is a DH type (especially with his struggles at the plate) in consideration of his defense... is severe mis-casting.

    Kinda of like putting Buddy Hackett in the lead of 50 shades of Grey.

    As for Reynolds... I want competition for Plouffe... So OK... However... With the team strikeout totals in 2013. Adding Reynolds and his strikeout totals isn't my first choice.

    Based on what?

    Total Zone has Parmelee 5 runs below average in RF, his UZR/150 is -6.1 (21/28 RF >500 innings), and his Revized Zone Rating is .920 (16/28 RF >500 innings). In comparison Willingham is 22/26 LF > 500 innings in UZR/150 and 18/26 LF > 500 innings in UZR/150 in Revized Zone Rating.

    Objectively Parmelee is to RF what Willingham is to LF relative to the league.

    Subjectively, his range needs work, his routes need work. He has indeed improved from being awful as he will catch balls close to him. Few years ago he use to allow balls reach the wall past him in multiple occasions. But still he is not a good outfielder he went from awful to below average.
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  2. #2
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    If defensive metrics are telling anybody that. They are flawed and worthless.

    I watched him play RF... He threw at least 4 runners out at 2B playing the ball off the wall and throwing a perfect strike. He covered ground... He got good jumps on the ball. Me made 4 or 5 nice diving catches. He caught many balls that were not hit right at him.

    Can you find better? Absolutely... You better be able to find better but Nobody who watched him play RF is going to say that Parm compares to Willingham in the OF.

    I'm not saying he has a Ben Revere glove or Carlos Gomez range or a Bryce Harper hose.

    I am saying that he is clearly multiple steps above Willingham... Doumit... Arcia and Colabello on defense. If the defensive metrics say differently. Put them down and don't look at them again until they fix it.

    He can play RF for my team any day without worry. His bat is the problem.
    "9. Lipstick"

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    Senior Member Triple-A amjgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    Based on what?

    Total Zone has Parmelee 5 runs below average in RF, his UZR/150 is -6.1 (21/28 RF >500 innings), and his Revized Zone Rating is .920 (16/28 RF >500 innings). In comparison Willingham is 22/26 LF > 500 innings in UZR/150 and 18/26 LF > 500 innings in UZR/150 in Revized Zone Rating.

    Objectively Parmelee is to RF what Willingham is to LF relative to the league.
    This is the best condemnation of those statistics I have ever seen.

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  6. #4
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amjgt View Post
    This is the best condemnation of those statistics I have ever seen.
    Based on?
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  7. #5
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    He plays the wall well and he has a good arm. Beyond that, his range is limited, which is typical for a big kid. He's a lot like Cuddyer, which is plenty good when you have a career OPS+ above 110, but not it is below 90.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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  9. #6
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    If defensive metrics are telling anybody that. They are flawed and worthless.

    I watched him play RF... He threw at least 4 runners out at 2B playing the ball off the wall and throwing a perfect strike. He covered ground... He got good jumps on the ball. Me made 4 or 5 nice diving catches. He caught many balls that were not hit right at him.

    Can you find better? Absolutely... You better be able to find better but Nobody who watched him play RF is going to say that Parm compares to Willingham in the OF.

    I'm not saying he has a Ben Revere glove or Carlos Gomez range or a Bryce Harper hose.

    I am saying that he is clearly multiple steps above Willingham... Doumit... Arcia and Colabello on defense. If the defensive metrics say differently. Put them down and don't look at them again until they fix it.

    He can play RF for my team any day without worry. His bat is the problem.
    I am glad that he can play for your team and day, I just don't want him to play for the Twins.

    Half of the thing up there was metrics. (the objective part). The other half (the subjective part) is what I have seen from him the last 3-4 years I have seen him play (his range needs work, his routes need work) I guess we are watching different people... I have no issue with his arm or the way he plays the wall. I just want him to catch more balls before the hit that wall or the ground. (and the objective metrics agree with this assessment...)
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  10. #7
    Senior Member All-Star Winston Smith's Avatar
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    Maybe I need new glasses but I didn't see anything last year that told me Parmalee was a good outfielder. He may be better than a bunch of other guys we have but none of them are close to playing good D! Maybe being less bad = good?
    You have to put up some really decent hitting numbers when you play D like he does and he has yet to come close to that, imo.
    This comment brought to you from the Rosedale Mall studio by Hamm's Beer, brewed in the land of sky blue waters.

  11. #8
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Parmelee has less than 90 MLB games played in the OF. Defensive metrics are basically useless at that point.

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  13. #9
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    I agree with those that don't fault Parm's defense. He is slow, no doubt. As his offensive struggles continued, he was less sharp in right field, but he on balance was decent out there. Yes, much like Cuddy, if he hits, no one will notice the lack of range. Whatever the metrics, I see a big difference between Parmelee and the likes of Doumit and Willingham. The Kubel that played left and right for the Twins fits between Parmelee and Hammer/DevilEyes.

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    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrylos View Post
    I am glad that he can play for your team and day, I just don't want him to play for the Twins.

    Half of the thing up there was metrics. (the objective part). The other half (the subjective part) is what I have seen from him the last 3-4 years I have seen him play (his range needs work, his routes need work) I guess we are watching different people... I have no issue with his arm or the way he plays the wall. I just want him to catch more balls before the hit that wall or the ground. (and the objective metrics agree with this assessment...)
    We must be watching different people.

    I admit I was worried about his OF D prior to 2013. That was erased quickly.

    I still worry about Hammer, Arcia, Doumit and Colabello OF D. Those guys were letting balls drop. Parm... Not so much.

    I did not watch Parm in Rochester and New Britain... Thyrlos... I assume you have and I always value your minor league opinion and that has been earned... You have that over me and I wouldn't dream of arguing any farm opinions... So if he was struggling there... I can't and won't refute it.

    But I will say that very few watch as many Twins games as I do. If the 2013 Defensive Metrics objectively say that Parm is akin to Hammer... they are wrong and I can say that with 100% subjective confidence.

    It's not really close. Parms bat is killing him. His D provided his value.
    "9. Lipstick"

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    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Clete had a decent glove too, but I don't want either of their bats in the lineup again.

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    Senior Member Triple-A amjgt's Avatar
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    The minus dWAR is whatever as are the raw numbers of UZR/150 - If the argument would have stopped there I would have thought those numbers were strangely low and moved on.

    But the moment those numbers indicated Parmelee was the same (or worse) defender than Hammer.... that's when s**t got real. That's just not reality.

  18. #13
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Joe A. Preusser's Avatar
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    I have to agree with RB. I'm sure I didn't watch nearly as many games as you all did since I mostly listen on the radio, but the 20 or so times I did see him out in RF I was pretty happy with his overall play. Range isn't everything. I would rather have a savvy guy who plays the wall and corner well and who has an above average arm than a Revere type who gets to waaaay more balls but has to one-hop it to the cutoff man. IMO, Cuddy is a great comparison (both offensively and defensively) for Parm's ceiling.

  19. #14
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Joe A. Preusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Clete had a decent glove too, but I don't want either of their bats in the lineup again.
    Definitely not a foregone conclusion that Parm's bat never catches up to MLB pitching. Might not be with us, but I wouldn't bet against him. Wouldn't be a tragedy to see him move on either, but he still has enough potential that I'd like to keep him around for a while.

  20. #15
    Senior Member Triple-A raindog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    If defensive metrics are telling anybody that. They are flawed and worthless.
    Flawed does not equal worthless.

    However, I agree with Brock that the sample size is not sufficient. And like you said, defensive metrics are flawed. Still a helpful tool.

    In my eyes, he was surprisingly "not bad" in RF. But he still needs to be a plus player with a bat in his hands before he's useful.

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  22. #16
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    I won't ever try to pass myself off as a scout but I was surprised watching Parmelee on defense this year. He looked like he got decent jumps and made some big plays. Now given due to his lack of speed his "big plays" would probably be routine for a lot of guys but at least he made them. Kubel had some years like that too where he was kinda lumbering but he made up for it by being good at the diving catch and positioning himself well to limit extra base hits. Same with Cuddyer too. I'm not sold on Parmelee but I'd like to see him get one more extended look this season.

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  24. #17
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    Perhaps I'm alone, but I'm not expecting great defensive work from a RF and the range of such a player is even less of a concern to me. Has anyone seen Target Field? RF has next to no foul territory and you could parallel park one, maybe two, RV's between the wall and the infield dirt.

    Also, I'm afraid to say that I think Buddy Hackett died several years back.

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  26. #18
    A dead buddy hackett playing right field? What's this?

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  28. #19
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    In case you missed it... Here are a few of the plays made by Parmelee last year.

    You won't be able to find anything like these for Willingham.

    http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=26728181&c_id=mlb

    http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=26905397&c_id=mlb

    http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=27035847&c_id=mlb

    http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=27619743&c_id=mlb

    http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=27679351&c_id=mlb

    http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=27772291&c_id=mlb

    He's not the fastest guy... I get that... There are better defensive OF options in Baseball. Willingham, Arcia, Doumit and Colabello are not part of that group of better defensive options.

    Players get discussed and dismissed for many things. Parm doesn't deserve to be knocked for his defensive play in 2013. I'll stand up for him on that.

    I'm a huge defensive guy. If someone isn't doing an above average job in the field... I'm gonna complain about it. Do you hear me Trevor Plouffe!!!

    It's why Delmon Young could do nothing for me at the plate to make up for the nightmare he was in LF. It's why I'm willing to give Florimon another go at the SS position despite weak hitting numbers.

    No complaints from me at all about Chris Parmelee on defense. Lumping him into a DH option is a serious miscast in the context of this team. In the context of the Twins... Parmelee as a DH is putting him in a role that he the worst at and removing him from a role that he is best at. That's a mistake!

    At the plate... Yeah... We got major concerns after 600 MLB at bats. For Parmelee to stick at 1B or the Corner OF... His bat has to get going right now and show some pop in 2014.

    Defensive Metrics... Flawed... Apparently. And if Flawed... The Worthiness is OK to be questioned in my mind.

    BUDDY HACKETT DEAD??? Well that has ruined my day!
    "9. Lipstick"

    "How can Canada produce Tie Domi and not have a better military"?

    "I noticed while robbing the First State Bank last night that if you go into the vault when nobody is looking... You can get away with it".

  29. #20
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Parmelee has less than 90 MLB games played in the OF. Defensive metrics are basically useless at that point.
    I'm unconvinced they're useful after 900 games.

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