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Thread: Not Hearing Much About Worley

  1. #41
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    I invoke the Duensing Rule.
    It will be a sad, sad day when he leaves the Twins. Without Duensing on the roster, hypothetical trade discussion will reduce by at least 43%.

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  3. #42
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    I don't know where you took logic, but I suggest you get your money back. In logic, the conclusion should follow from the premises with no additional assumptions. I can't even begin to fill in all the assumptions it would take to make those conclusions follow from your interlocutor's premises.
    The logic that one season (in which all four of the guys in question were hurt or coming off being hurt) is reason to toss them aside is making sweeping conclusions based on small sample sizes. That was precisely the assumption being made and the one I used hyperbole to lampoon.

    You have to earn your way in this game. Last year's audition showed that Gibson still has some stuff to work on. A few months in AAA won't hurt him. It probably will help him. The worst thing that could happen at this stage is to give him the job and let him fail again. If he dominates in AAA, they'll make room for him.
    By that logic, you must HATE Pelfrey. Because not only did he not earn his check last year, he damn sure didn't earn another one.

    Gibson, for the very same reasons as Pelfrey, has potential to be a benefit two years removed from TJ. But pitching at AAA, at the age of nearly 27, is quickly moving him into the "after-thought" pile. We need him to be more than that.

    And, as I said, if we were pushing him to AAA for a good pitcher - fine by me. But we're pushing him to AAA for a old, "meh" player with no upside. That's my issue with this. Pushing him down for Hughes, Nolasco, and even Pelfrey I got. Correia? Sorry, but I don't like that.

  4. #43
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    The Twins must develop pitchers with service time this year.

    Worley has better projections than Pelfrey because they are based on 3-4 years and Worley has been the better pitcher over that longer span. To toss him and his service time for two years of Pelfrey just keep the Twins in this cycle of mediocrity. He absolutely needs to be on the staff even if in the pen to start he year.

    Gibson needs to be in the rotation day 1. He has shown he can get AAA hitters out. He will only adjust to major league hitters in the majors. It took Viola two seasons of struggle. It took Radke 50 starts. If the Twins care about the long term health, they need to invest innings in their better prospects. It can't be the shuttle they put Hendriks on. The pitchers need to know they are going to get a long look.

    Meyer needs to be up early. If he has 8-10 good starts in AAA bring him up. The A's and Rays have brought up top pitching prospects at young ages. Meyer needs to be up and adjusting to major league pitching while his arm is fresh.

    If May pitches well, he needs a space somewhere midseason.

    The Twins season will be successful if they have some hope in some of these service time starters. Getting there will mean relegating Correia to the pen early on and being willing to dump Pelfrey by trade if he pitches well or release if he is no better than mediocre by midseason.

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  6. #44
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    Unfortunately you aren't getting Hardy for a 28 year old AAA RP.

    It would probably take May to get him.

  7. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    It will be a sad, sad day when he leaves the Twins. Without Duensing on the roster, hypothetical trade discussion will reduce by at least 43%.
    I think you will be able to find a replacement. Perhaps a thread opening nominations here but I'm thinking Walker, Diamond, and Worley would be front runners to replace him.

  8. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    I fully expect Ryan to give another "shot" in the rotation to try to justify last year's trade of Revere. But there are sooo many others battling for a spot in the rotation, that Worley's leash will be much shorter than last year--I'm guessing 5 starts maximum. If last year's results are duplicated, he will be waived.
    I think most all of the rotation will be on a short leash. 5 max clunkers at the most for any of them, at the very max. It remains to be seen how the rotation at Rochester will shake out, but they'd best be ready.

    I don't know the odds on this, but if the Twins top 4 rotation all get to opening day without injuries, I'd be surprised. I think a few of these AAA pitchers are going to have to step it up a notch.

  9. #47
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Sometimes I wonder if we are talking about the same guy because the Worley I saw last year didn't appear to have any kind of future in Major League baseball. JMO

  10. #48
    Head Moderator All-Star glunn's Avatar
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    Moderator note -- let's be careful to be respectful in this thread and avoid bickering.

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  12. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    The logic that one season (in which all four of the guys in question were hurt or coming off being hurt) is reason to toss them aside is making sweeping conclusions based on small sample sizes. That was precisely the assumption being made and the one I used hyperbole to lampoon.



    By that logic, you must HATE Pelfrey. Because not only did he not earn his check last year, he damn sure didn't earn another one.

    Gibson, for the very same reasons as Pelfrey, has potential to be a benefit two years removed from TJ. But pitching at AAA, at the age of nearly 27, is quickly moving him into the "after-thought" pile. We need him to be more than that.

    And, as I said, if we were pushing him to AAA for a good pitcher - fine by me. But we're pushing him to AAA for a old, "meh" player with no upside. That's my issue with this. Pushing him down for Hughes, Nolasco, and even Pelfrey I got. Correia? Sorry, but I don't like that.
    The assumption would be that Gibson has high upside. Various scouting reports have Gibson as a command and control pitcher. Good pitches, but not overwhelming. That puts him in the middle of the rotation. Pushing him to AAA, hardly. His own pitching will place him. To work on control it doesn't matter where he pitches.I really don't think the Twins have kept a quality starter in the minors just because they can.
    Last edited by old nurse; 12-24-2013 at 05:44 AM.

  13. #50
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    The assumption would be that Gibson has high upside. Various scouting reports have Gibson as a command and control pitcher. Good pitches, but not overwhelming. That puts him in the middle of the rotation. Pushing him to AAA, hardly. His own pitching will place him. To work on control it doesn't matter where he pitches.I really don't think the Twins have kept a quality starter in the minors just because they can.
    At this point the Twins have signed four starters and have one spot for Deduno, Diamond, Worley, and Gibson. Only Gibson has options. I'd wager he could throw 6 no hitters in ST and he still would be sent down.

    And I'm not sure why the first half of your post was campaigning to mitigate his relevance. Gibson has been this teams best SP prospect for years and we don't know his ceiling yet. Coming off of Tommy John surgery takes time but he needs to show it in the majors, not AAA.

  14. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    At this point the Twins have signed four starters and have one spot for Deduno, Diamond, Worley, and Gibson. Only Gibson has options. I'd wager he could throw 6 no hitters in ST and he still would be sent down.

    And I'm not sure why the first half of your post was campaigning to mitigate his relevance. Gibson has been this teams best SP prospect for years and we don't know his ceiling yet. Coming off of Tommy John surgery takes time but he needs to show it in the majors, not AAA.
    So after three 90+ loss seasons in a row, you are campaigning for our favorite team to award scholarships?

  15. #52
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    So after three 90+ loss seasons in a row, you are campaigning for our favorite team to award scholarships?
    No, I'm campaigning for them to not waste time with 33 year old starters with no upside at the expense of 25 year old ones with significant upside. Let the four of them battle over two spots, not one.

  16. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    So after three 90+ loss seasons in a row, you are campaigning for our favorite team to award scholarships?
    Let's not act like they haven't gone against this statement multiple times after it was made.

    In some cases, giving a guy like Gibson a shot is more valuable and important to the team long term than having a guy who might pitch better on a one or two year deal.
    Last edited by Alex; 12-24-2013 at 09:29 AM.

  17. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosterman View Post
    I keep telling myself the same, that the Twins have to package these out-of-option guys.
    Out of option guys, especially on a team like the Twins, have little value. I mentioned this in the Parmelee thread. If a team could wait to get a player for free, they're not going to trade anything significant for him. If a player is out of options and can't make the active roster as bad as the Twins have been, there are very few, if any, teams they'd be useful to.

  18. #55
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    I've never found the argument, they have made this mistake in the past, therefore they should continue to make the same mistake, very compelling.

    The too much starting pitching disease, is not a bad problem to have. I'm surprised that the same prolific posters who were demanding our favorite team sign multiple free agent starting pitchers, are now uncomfortable Deduno, Diamond, and Worley may get beat out, and that Gibson and Meyer may receive additional time to succeed before they hit the big stage. I simply do not see the downside in all this.
    Last edited by howieramone; 12-24-2013 at 10:01 AM.

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  20. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    I've never found the argument, they have made this mistake in the past, therefore they should continue to make the same mistake, very compelling.

    The too much starting pitching disease, is not a bad problem to have. I'm surprised that the same prolific posters who were demanding our favorite team sign multiple free agent starting pitchers, are now uncomfortable Deduno, Diamond, and Worley may get beat out, and that Gibson and Meyer may receive additional time to succeed before they hit the big stage. I simply do not see the downside in all this.
    My larger point was that letting a young player play isn't necessarily a scholarship if that's what his development needs.

    Signing free agent pitchers and signing "good" free agent pitchers are two different things. I think that most people are happy with two of the three (one way or another), but the third doesn't sit well.

    While he wasn't a pitcher, the Doumit extension shows exactly what can happen when you don't have roster spots. Doumit wasn't really deserving of playing time but he was stuck holding a roster spot that would have been better served by Arcia, or even Parmelee (to at least give him one last extended look).

    This could apply to pitching this season. Heck, we're acting like Deduno was terrible, but he's actually been good and barring injury seems to deserve a spot more than Pelfrey. Now, though, the Twins have decisions about him, Worley (who has had success and they traded a decent player for), and Diamond (who is probably not as good as his first season and is probably better than his second).

  21. #57
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Let's not act like they haven't gone against this statement multiple times after it was made.

    In some cases, giving a guy like Gibson a shot is more valuable and important to the team long term than having a guy who might pitch better on a one or two year deal.
    Nobody has said they won't give him a shot. But unlike previous years, guys like Gibson will have to earn their way into the rotation. I don't have a problem with that. Does keeping Correia and signing Pelfrey make that harder? Sure. But Gibson still has just one legit starter to compete with for the fifth spot, imho. And that guy had shoulder surgery in the offseason.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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  23. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor0333 View Post
    Unfortunately you aren't getting Hardy for a 28 year old AAA RP.

    It would probably take May to get him.
    May for Hardy? I'd probably take that.
    I couldn't be a player because of bad eyesight, so I decided to be an umpire instead.

  24. #59
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Nobody has said they won't give him a shot. But unlike previous years, guys like Gibson will have to earn their way into the rotation. I don't have a problem with that. Does keeping Correia and signing Pelfrey make that harder? Sure. But Gibson still has just one legit starter to compete with for the fifth spot, imho. And that guy had shoulder surgery in the offseason.
    Gibson has to earn his way in but Pelfrey doesn't? For a rebuilding team that logic is incredibly misguided. At some point all the seasoning in the world at AAA isn't helpful. Gibson needs to pitch in the big leagues.

    And we disagree about one "legit" pitcher. Worley, Deduno, and Diamond have all had better success in the major leagues in the last two years than Pelfrey or Correia - both who are basically going to be scholarshipped into the rotation at the beginning of the year. That's the problem. (And the irony that someone would suggest I'm campaigning for scholarships. I'm in the exact opposite boat. We need to be about auditions, not placeholders)

    If Worley and and Diamond had to earn their way in and, if they failed, go to AAA - I would have zero problem with that. Zero. But that's not the situation and I don't want to lose either of them for nothing in the name of Kevin freakin Correia.

  25. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Gibson has to earn his way in but Pelfrey doesn't? For a rebuilding team that logic is incredibly misguided. At some point all the seasoning in the world at AAA isn't helpful. Gibson needs to pitch in the big leagues.

    And we disagree about one "legit" pitcher. Worley, Deduno, and Diamond have all had better success in the major leagues in the last two years than Pelfrey or Correia - both who are basically going to be scholarshipped into the rotation at the beginning of the year. That's the problem. (And the irony that someone would suggest I'm campaigning for scholarships. I'm in the exact opposite boat. We need to be about auditions, not placeholders)

    If Worley and and Diamond had to earn their way in and, if they failed, go to AAA - I would have zero problem with that. Zero. But that's not the situation and I don't want to lose either of them for nothing in the name of Kevin freakin Correia.
    As bad as Mike Pelfrey was overall last year, Kyle Gibson was even worse. I expect Kyle Gibson to be better than he was last year and have in no way given up on him. Mike Pelfrey has had success in the majors while Kyle Gibson hasn't. I would like Kyle Gibson to start in the Twins rotation this year, but at this point I don't see how he deserves a spot over Mike Pelfrey unless he proves it before the season starts.

    The same goes for Correia and the other pitchers. Kevin Correia was by far our best starting pitcher last year besides Sam Deduno. Did you see how Worley and Diamond pitched last year? Kevin Correia deserves to be in the rotation over them, unless proven before the season starts that he doesn't.
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