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Thread: Chris Parmelee trade value?

  1. #21
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    How in the world can it be said that Parmelee has shown he can hit major league pitching in the past - that statement simply boggles the mind.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Triple-A goulik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy10 View Post
    How in the world can it be said that Parmelee has shown he can hit major league pitching in the past - that statement simply boggles the mind.
    He can hit it at least once every ten times at the plate!!

  3. #23
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy10 View Post
    How in the world can it be said that Parmelee has shown he can hit major league pitching in the past - that statement simply boggles the mind.
    Well, has shown that he can hit MLB pitching... The problem is that it's so infrequently that it's increasingly difficult to believe he will ever be an adequate MLB hitter overall.

    The Twins should have collected enough information about Parmelee last season to make a decision. It was foolish to send him to Rochester and not play him everyday so we wouldn't have to go through this routine for the third consecutive season. Isn't that the point of a lost season? If you're not going to win, at least use the time to figure out who should be on the roster when you CAN win.

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  5. #24
    Senior Member Triple-A goulik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Well, has shown that he can hit MLB pitching... The problem is that it's so infrequently that it's increasingly difficult to believe he will ever be an adequate MLB hitter overall.

    The Twins should have collected enough information about Parmelee last season to make a decision. It was foolish to send him to Rochester and not play him everyday so we wouldn't have to go through this routine for the third consecutive season. Isn't that the point of a lost season? If you're not going to win, at least use the time to figure out who should be on the roster when you CAN win.
    AMEN!! The like button just does not agree emphatically enough!

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy10 View Post
    How in the world can it be said that Parmelee has shown he can hit major league pitching in the past - that statement simply boggles the mind.
    He hasn't had enough time to use the data and say he won't hit major league pitching.

    His OPS+ through 631 plate appearances is 98.
    Cuddyer through 1109 was 97.
    Morneau through 970 was 100.

    Investing plate appearances in those two team control assets was critical to the success of the previous decade. If the Twins believe Parmelee has the ceiling of a major league regular, they should have been investing more plate appearances.

    The Twins have a choice this year. They can play Willinghama or Kubel who will not be part of the future solution or they can invest regular playing time into Parmelee at a corner OF and see if he is part of the solution.

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  8. #26
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    He hasn't had enough time to use the data and say he won't hit major league pitching.

    His OPS+ through 631 plate appearances is 98.
    Cuddyer through 1109 was 97.
    Morneau through 970 was 100.

    Investing plate appearances in those two team control assets was critical to the success of the previous decade. If the Twins believe Parmelee has the ceiling of a major league regular, they should have been investing more plate appearances.

    The Twins have a choice this year. They can play Willinghama or Kubel who will not be part of the future solution or they can invest regular playing time into Parmelee at a corner OF and see if he is part of the solution.
    And his OPS+ for his last 543 PAs is 84. He's done nothing to earn playing time since his incredible 88 PAs in Sep 2011.

    How long do you want the Twins to keep losing 90+ games? Personally, I'm long past tired of it, and want the Twins to start putting better players on the field. If Kubel is better in 2014, play him. I could care less about the possibility Parmelee might be better in 2017.
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  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    And his OPS+ for his last 543 PAs is 84. He's done nothing to earn playing time since his incredible 88 PAs in Sep 2011.

    How long do you want the Twins to keep losing 90+ games? Personally, I'm long past tired of it, and want the Twins to start putting better players on the field. If Kubel is better in 2014, play him. I could care less about the possibility Parmelee might be better in 2017.
    Should the Twins have said the same thing about Morneau in his second full season at 239/304/437? They gave him 543 plate appearances. He did nothing to earn his consistent regular opportunity that year. The Twins invested in his upside and received the pay off.

    The Twins have not invested that consistent playing time into Parmelee.

    A few other guys that received consistent playing time despite early struggles at the plate were Gaetti and Hunter. I did not include them with Cuddyer and Morneau because their gloves helped keep them on the field. All 4 players needed significant playing time before they were consistent contributors at the plate.

    Some of the new wave of prospects may struggle at the plate the first 1000 plate appearances. Are the Twins willing to invest playing time and let them work through their struggles or will they give it to no upside decline phase veterans?

    The Twins may have assessed that Parmelee does not have the upside of a major league regular. That assessment can only come from the observation of their staff. The data in a players first 600 plate appearance isn't near enough to support an assessment of future upside.

  11. #28
    Senior Member All-Star Hosken Bombo Disco's Avatar
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    I like Parmelee. I'm thoroughly convinced he must have hit a home run at a game I attended once.

    I like the Cuddyer comparison. I also like Cuddyer. I was thinking Parmelee deserved at least one more dedicated six week MLB tryout but then Terry Ryan went in "win now" free agent signing mode, so I think Parmelee only has Spring Training to show his stuff.

  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    Should the Twins have said the same thing about Morneau in his second full season at 239/304/437? They gave him 543 plate appearances. He did nothing to earn his consistent regular opportunity that year. The Twins invested in his upside and received the pay off.

    The Twins have not invested that consistent playing time into Parmelee.

    A few other guys that received consistent playing time despite early struggles at the plate were Gaetti and Hunter. I did not include them with Cuddyer and Morneau because their gloves helped keep them on the field. All 4 players needed significant playing time before they were consistent contributors at the plate.

    Some of the new wave of prospects may struggle at the plate the first 1000 plate appearances. Are the Twins willing to invest playing time and let them work through their struggles or will they give it to no upside decline phase veterans?

    The Twins may have assessed that Parmelee does not have the upside of a major league regular. That assessment can only come from the observation of their staff. The data in a players first 600 plate appearance isn't near enough to support an assessment of future upside.
    It's also worth noting that Morneau's and Cuddyer's young MLB development process came in the middle of pennant races. and IIRC both those guys had below average defense but in the same process became assets in the field. Why can't we develop talent anymore?

  13. #30
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosken Bombo Disco View Post
    It's also worth noting that Morneau's and Cuddyer's young MLB development process came in the middle of pennant races. and IIRC both those guys had below average defense but in the same process became assets in the field. Why can't we develop talent anymore?
    It's possible Parmelee just isn't talented enough, but there is no doubt he's had a shorter leash than several similar prospects we've brought up. I can't help but think that leash could be a factor in his struggles.

    The man needed to get 600 ABs last year - even if he was awful for most of them.

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  15. #31
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    It is comical to compare Morneau and Cuddyer with Parmelee. The first two were consensus top 10 prospects in baseball at one point. I don't think Parmelee ever cracked the top 100.

    His upside has always been limited by his slow bat, which will only slow down over time. As pitchers learn that he can't hit the high cheese, he will get a steady diet of it. In fact, he already has. In his first taste in the majors, they pitched to his strengths. Now, they pitch to his weaknesses. He's had over 550 PAs to adjust and he hasn't done it. He was sent down last year to work on making that adjustment (lay off the high cheese). He never did. Oh well. Arcia is the guy now.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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  17. #32
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    Should the Twins have said the same thing about Morneau in his second full season at 239/304/437? They gave him 543 plate appearances. He did nothing to earn his consistent regular opportunity that year. The Twins invested in his upside and received the pay off.
    Morneau had also had a .271/.340/.536 line in 312 PAs the season before, and as mentioned above was a much more highly thought of prospect than Parmelee. Morneau's career minor league OPS was over .900 in 2100+ PAs, a hundred points higher than Parmelee.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  18. #33
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    It is a tough call. When do you give up on a player? It seems lots of people on here were upset with the Twins for giving up on the former Twins who were All Stars this year. Not saying Parmelee will ever be an All Star but patience is a virtue for a reason as it can pay off big time. Personally I am not a believer in Parms but I do think he deserves one last shot with us before we declare him a Joe Benson.

  19. #34
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dman View Post
    It is a tough call. When do you give up on a player? It seems lots of people on here were upset with the Twins for giving up on the former Twins who were All Stars this year. Not saying Parmelee will ever be an All Star but patience is a virtue for a reason as it can pay off big time. Personally I am not a believer in Parms but I do think he deserves one last shot with us before we declare him a Joe Benson.
    I'll add to this... There was a massive uproar over losing Benson this year, and Parmelee is far more likely to succeed. I'm with Levi on this. I'm not sure Parm or Plouffe will amount to much, but both of have shown flashes of something that could make them above average regulars. I think the Twins have to give them every opportunity to succeed, especially in what will likely be another lost season.

  20. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Well, has shown that he can hit MLB pitching... The problem is that it's so infrequently that it's increasingly difficult to believe he will ever be an adequate MLB hitter overall.

    The Twins should have collected enough information about Parmelee last season to make a decision. It was foolish to send him to Rochester and not play him everyday so we wouldn't have to go through this routine for the third consecutive season. Isn't that the point of a lost season? If you're not going to win, at least use the time to figure out who should be on the roster when you CAN win.
    Yes the Twins screwed the pooch on Parm and Colabello last season , instead of finding out what they had in a lost year , they were misused and now we once again wonder what if....
    In Parmelee we can look back at his numbers in the minors and see he has never hit for high average conssistantly or has never hit 18 homers in 1 season,and at his age will probally not develope any more power, I see him topping out at .270 and 15 homers per season

  21. #36
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    I think the evaluation period for the two players hasn't or shouldn't have been the same. Parmelee is in his mid-20s and can capably defend at two positions. Colabello is 30 and might be passable at first base (a position now manned by Joe Mauer). Any platoon would favor the left handed hitter.

  22. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    Last season Pinto, Pressly, Gibson, Arcia, Hicks, Tonkin, Thielbar, and Presley all debuted at Target Field and appear to have roles in the future. I'm really not all that concerned about how the battle shapes up between Parmelee and Colabello for the 25th spot.
    I think Parmelee's competition for a roster spot is Kubel not Colabello. Colabello will probably not make the club, and if he does, it will be as a right handed platoon player and to give Mauer an occasional day off against the super tough lefty. That will end when Sano comes up and Plouffe fills that role. Parmelee will make the club if he can beat out Kubel, otherwise his days here will be over.

  23. #38
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beckmt View Post
    I think Parmelee's competition for a roster spot is Kubel not Colabello. Colabello will probably not make the club, and if he does, it will be as a right handed platoon player and to give Mauer an occasional day off against the super tough lefty. That will end when Sano comes up and Plouffe fills that role. Parmelee will make the club if he can beat out Kubel, otherwise his days here will be over.
    I agree. If Kubel is anywhere near what he was two seasons ago, he will win the DH job. 12 pitchers, 13 position players. Here's is my starting 9, as of now:

    Presley (unless Hicks beats him out) 8
    Dozier 4
    Mauer 3
    Willingham 7
    Kubel 10
    Plouffe 5
    Arcia 9
    Pinto 2
    Florimon 6

    Backup C: Suzuki
    Util: The winner of Escobar/Bartlett
    Fourth Outfielder: The winner of Maestro/Ramirez
    25th man: ????

    So who are the options for the 25th man? It all depends on how they all play in Spring Training. As you say, Colabello has an edge since he's the only right handed power bat on the 40-man roster. The options to use a left-handed bench bat will be limited.

    Parmelee is a good kid and I wish him well. But he was not a good draft choice. If he doesn't make the team and needs to be taken off the roster, no one should hang their heads. The Twins did everything they could to get him ready. He just didn't have the fast twitchy muscles to generate bat speed, which is one of those things built into the fiber of your DNA.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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  25. #39
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    What other MLB team outside of Houston would even consider Colabello for a roster spot, a ridiculous option to the max. Unless, of course, the franchise is shooting for the neighborhood of ninety losses one more time.

  26. #40
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    At this point Parmelee has all the trade value that Restovich had when he left the Twins.

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