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Thread: Pedro Florimon

  1. #61
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    I agree. Florimon may not be the answer (short or long term), but he is a heck of a lot better answer at short than Butera was at catcher. Butera was brutal. And he was good defensively, but I always thought his defense was overrated, 'cause if you're offense is that bad and you still have a job, you must be some kind of wiz with the glove. I don't get the same sense from Florimon. He really is an elite defender.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    I agree. Florimon may not be the answer (short or long term), but he is a heck of a lot better answer at short than Butera was at catcher. Butera was brutal. And he was good defensively, but I always thought his defense was overrated, 'cause if you're offense is that bad and you still have a job, you must be some kind of wiz with the glove. I don't get the same sense from Florimon. He really is an elite defender.
    Until he resolves his underlying issues as documented in this thread, I would prefer " very rangy" and "flashy" to "elite" to more accurately characterize Florimon's defense.

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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Physics Guy View Post
    I would tend to agree with this. I argued this same point last preseason. Florimon put up a .611 OPS with above average defense at SS. The league average for a #9 hitter is .633. I have no problem with Florimon as our SS and #9 hitter for the near future. I also expect he could approach the league average this season.
    Our bigger problem than Florimon's dream of reaching .633 OPS is that our Leadoff Hitter OPS was .634!!!!

    The Twins 2013 Leadoff slash of .225/.286/.347/.634 was plain awful and virtually identical to the average #9 spot that you cited for supposedly the worst batter in a lineup.......and especially disturbing when compared to the League Average at the Leadoff slot of .264/.324/.393/.716.

    Until this reality is either addressed by the Twins in a player upgrade...... or someone currently in the system "steps up to the plate" and merely reaches league average #s in the #1 spot in the order, Florimon isn't going to get much help in raising his already-offensively-challenged bat in the 9 hole- based on the status quo remaining intact for 2014, the most we can realistically expect from Florimon is a marginal improvement, particularly from the right side of the plate.
    Last edited by jokin; 01-02-2014 at 11:47 PM.

  5. #64
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iastfan112 View Post
    Your either overrating Florimon's futility with the bat or underrating Butera's. 100 pts of OPS is a lot. With good defense at SS a .600 OPS is tolerable, a .500 OPS isn't, regardless of position.
    No, I'm not. Florimon is awful with the bat.

    Butera is in his own category. Historically awful, if you will.

    I brought up Butera because a lot of this thread reads like Butera threads of the past. "If this player can stop being really bad at a particular skill and despite showing absolutely no inclination to do so in a 6+ year professional career, he could be an okay player."

    You know as well as I do just how incredibly rare that kind of transformation is in a 27-28 year old player.

    If Florimon turns into merely a bad hitter (say, a .630-.640 OPS) and cleans up his defensive mental gaffes, he's a serviceable stopgap player. But at this point, even that is unlikely.

  6. #65
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Physics Guy View Post
    I would tend to agree with this. I argued this same point last preseason. Florimon put up a .611 OPS with above average defense at SS. The league average for a #9 hitter is .633. I have no problem with Florimon as our SS and #9 hitter for the near future. I also expect he could approach the league average this season.
    So you're telling me that the Twins' biggest problem is that they have too many #9 hitters?

  7. #66
    Senior Member Triple-A
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    I believe it is a given that the Twins have too many # 9 hitters in their lineup, I'd like to see that notion disputed, please.

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy10 View Post
    I believe it is a given that the Twins have too many # 9 hitters in their lineup, I'd like to see that notion disputed, please.
    ... and while your at it, please dispute the notion that we have too many #5 starters!

  9. #68
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    So you're telling me that the Twins' biggest problem is that they have too many #9 hitters?
    Too many #9 hitters and too few #9 spots in the lineup.

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  11. #69
    Count me in as a guy who's really hoping "P-Flo" catches on. With a nickname like that, he's sure to be a defensive "whiz". If I get to giggle like an idiot every time he takes the field, I'm OK with waiting another year before trying to make an upgrade at the position.

    I also agree that we may need to look to poach a promising Milb SS from a team with an established young SS already in the majors. Glad I'm sitting in my chair and not TR's. Finding above average hitting and fielding shortstops has NEVER been an easy proposition.

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    No, I'm not. Florimon is awful with the bat.

    Butera is in his own category. Historically awful, if you will.

    I brought up Butera because a lot of this thread reads like Butera threads of the past. "If this player can stop being really bad at a particular skill and despite showing absolutely no inclination to do so in a 6+ year professional career, he could be an okay player."

    You know as well as I do just how incredibly rare that kind of transformation is in a 27-28 year old player.
    I did not realize he was already 27. That does shine a different light on this topic. I was thinking in terms on ML ABs. He is only six months older than Dozier so let's hope he can have a year like Dozier did last year.

    He very likely is not the answer long-term but neither is Drew, not by a longshot. So, I just don't see replacing him right now, given the vailable options, as worthy of much concern. Frankly, I would prefer to watch Florimon do his thing defensively for now as opposed to bringing in a player that likely provides very little improvement in wins & losses. I find more entertainment value in watching Florimon in the field even though he is often brutal at the plate. There is no way I would give up a draft pick for the meager competitive benefit provided by drew.
    Last edited by Major Leauge Ready; 01-03-2014 at 09:36 AM.

  13. #71
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major Leauge Ready View Post
    I did not realize he was already 27. That does shine a different light on this topic. I was thinking in terms on ML ABs. He is only six months older than Dozier so let's hope he can have a year like Dozier did last year.

    He very likely is not the answer long-term but neither is Drew, not by a longshot. So, I just don't see replacing him right now, given the vailable options, as worthy of much concern. Frankly, I would prefer to watch Florimon do his thing defensively for now as opposed to bringing in a player that likely has very little improvement in wins & losses, not to mention there is no way I would give up a draft pick for the meager benefit provided by drew.
    I have issues comparing Florimon and Dozier because Dozier showed flashes of being a good hitter in the minors. It may have only been one season but he OPSed a full 120 points higher than any season Florimon posted.

    I can see the argument that Florimon is "good enough" to avoid picking up Drew but at some point, don't you have to make improvements when and where you can? Drew is definitely a win improvement over Florimon, though I'm not sold that the Twins won't have a better SS option next offseason, be it through trade or free agency.

    My only issue is with people predicting some kind of breakout for Florimon... At this point, he's almost certainly going to continue being the guy he is today, or at least some close approximation of that player.

  14. #72
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    The thing with comp picks - Drew's already declined one QO, because he's good. He might regress badly in the next 2-3 years, that's FA for you. He might also remain good enough to decline a QO entering his age 33 or 34 season. In which case the Twins could not only get the pick back, but even drat higher.

    Or we could wait till next offseason, face the same dilemma all over again, and have to surrender the 15th pick instead of the 35th pick to get a FA SS.

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  16. #73
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Here's the organizational depthchart at SS, sorted by OPS.
    Player Pos Age level G OPS
    Montesino Ariel# SS 17 ROK 23 0.812
    Escobar Eduardo# SS 24 AAAMAJ 109 0.755
    Bernier Doug SS 33 AAAMAJ 125 0.754
    Goodrum Niko# SS 21 L-A 103 0.732
    Santana Danny# SS 22 AA 131 0.719
    Ramirez Joel# SS 19 ROK 53 0.709
    Mejia Aderlin# SS 21 H-A 75 0.708
    Michael Levi# SS 22 H-A 94 0.67
    Walker Ryan* SS 21 ROKL-A 48 0.651
    Florimon Pedro# SS 26 MAJ 134 0.611
    Vielma Engelb# SS 19 ROK 48 0.571
    Pettersen Adam SS 24 H-AAA 86 0.556
    Avila Carlos SS 23 ROK 24 0.533
    Molina Nelson* SS 18 ROK 36 0.297

  17. #74
    Yes, Florimon has his warts, but there's a comparison to what we were all saying about Dozier last year. This will really be Florimon's second season as a regular, and Dozier flourished his second time around. Let's hope that becoming a little more comfortable and working on his deficiencies in the offseason will allow him to make a jump to palatable with the bat and consistent with his defense.

  18. #75
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teddy View Post
    Yes, Florimon has his warts, but there's a comparison to what we were all saying about Dozier last year. This will really be Florimon's second season as a regular, and Dozier flourished his second time around. Let's hope that becoming a little more comfortable and working on his deficiencies in the offseason will allow him to make a jump to palatable with the bat and consistent with his defense.
    Again, Dozier showed an ability to hit in the minors. Florimon has never shown a similar ability at any level over a full season.

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  20. #76
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Levi Michael = sad face.

    On Florimon, I agree with Brock that he is not likely to get better. He is probably due for regression offensively. Still, I disagree that he can be a serviceable stop gap. You have to take it in context. Shortstops are the rarest commodities. So a guy can hit .600 and be serviceable if he plays above average defense. That is what I expect from him, and I'm OK with it as long as they assemble a team around him that can win.

    If they sign Drew, I'm sure Florimon has some trade value, just as Butera had surprising trade value given his level of competence. Catchers aren't quite as rare as shortstops, but they're close.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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  22. #77
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Physics Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    So you're telling me that the Twins' biggest problem is that they have too many #9 hitters?
    No, I don't think I said that at all. I said that Florimon is not a serious problem as a #9. With that being said, I don't disagree that the Twins are seriously lacking some hitters for the top half of the order. Without looking it up, Mauer was most likely the only batter who was above league average in OPS for his spot in the batting order (Dozier might be close).

  23. #78
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Physics Guy View Post
    No, I don't think I said that at all. I said that Florimon is not a serious problem as a #9. With that being said, I don't disagree that the Twins are seriously lacking some hitters for the top half of the order. Without looking it up, Mauer was most likely the only batter who was above league average in OPS for his spot in the batting order (Dozier might be close).
    And my point is that Florimon is a problem when the team also has 3-4 other guys with an OPS of a typical 7-8-9 hitter.

    At some point, this team needs to start getting better at various positions around the diamond.

  24. #79
    It is hard to argue that Florimon is part of a problem we have of several players posting an OPS of a #9 hitter. However another way to look at this problem is that Florimon's position is probably the hardest position to improve offensively. I don't think it makes sense to force a solutiuon right now. Not just because he is good defensively but because it is far easier to make offensive improvement within the other positions where we have players producing a low OPS. Last year we produced a very modest OPS at 1st base, DH, and the outfield positions which are typical positions with high OPS players. It makes more sense to prioritize offensive improvements elsewhere. This is not to say we should ignore SS but there is probably some wisdom in waiting until a better solution presents itself.
    Last edited by Major Leauge Ready; 01-03-2014 at 12:35 PM.

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  26. #80
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major Leauge Ready View Post
    It is hard to argue that Florimon is part of a problem we have of several players posting an OPS of a #9 hitter. However another way to look at this problem is that Florimon's position is probably the hardest position to improve offensively. I don't think it makes sense to force a solutiuon right now. Not just because he is good defensively but because it is far easier to make offensive improvement within the other positions where we have players producing a low OPS. Last year we produced a very modest OPS at 1st base, DH, and the outfield positions which are typical positions with high OPS players. It makes more sense to prioritize offensive improvements elsewhere. This is not to say we should ignore SS but there is probably some wisdom in waiting until a better solution presents itself.
    Well said. It is a lot easier and less expensive to upgrade the offense at other positions. I expect that to happen at positions 3, 5, 7 and 9 and 10. If they can be status quo at 6 and 8 while not losing too much at 2, a lot of the angst about the offense will go away. This is essentially the same offense that was in the top 5 in the league in 2012 (with worse offense at SS than in 2013). Last year was a larger than expected regression. This year should pendulum back, not to 2012 levels, but above average, imho. The number nine hitter will not make that big of a difference in the pendulum swing one way or another.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

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