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Thread: Pedro Florimon

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    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Pedro Florimon

    I think this thread will naturally turn to offense.

    However... I'd like to focus on defense.

    It's my opinion... Defensively... Andrelton Simmons in Atlanta... Jose Iglasias in Detroit... The best?

    I think Florimon is in that group for discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    I think this thread will naturally turn to offense.

    However... I'd like to focus on defense.

    It's my opinion... Defensively... Andrelton Simmons in Atlanta... Jose Iglasias in Detroit... The best?

    I think Florimon is in that group for discussion.
    Discussion, yes. Favorable comparisons, no.

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    Senior Member All-Star Boom Boom's Avatar
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    I bet there's a lot of great fielding shortstops in the minor leagues that we don't hear about because their offense isn't good enough to crack a major league roster.

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    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Monkeypaws's Avatar
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    Pedro had some flashes in his first full season in the bigs. If he shows any progress at all, fewer errors, higher batting average, fewer whiffs, he will be a decent MLB shortstop.

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    Just curious: have you seen much of Simmons or Iglesias? I haven't.

    Simmons is off the charts in the numbers. In ~200 career games, he rates out at 31-40 runs saved per 1200 innings in the two defensive metrics (TZ and DRS) listed at B-Ref.

    Iglesias is much more conservative, 5-10 career rates per 1200 innings, with less than half Simmons' sample size.

    Florimon has a more comparable sample, with 0-14 career rates per 1200 innings. Interesting that all 3 of the Twins primary infielders (Florimon, Dozier, and Plouffe) fared much better in the DRS figure as opposed to TZ last year, all covering decent sample sizes (120+ games). Not sure if that suggests a team or park bias, or which way such a bias would be skewing.

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    Senior Member Triple-A zchrz's Avatar
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    Simmons is an absolute defensive monster freak of nature, there is no discussion of who is the best.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/is-an...e-season-ever/

    P Flo has some good range and makes some difficult plays, but he also still struggles some with consistency botching to many easy attempts. He has the potential to be a nice player if he improves on the easy stuff and hits the ball at an acceptable clip. A defensive whiz SS that can hit 230-240 with some pop and steal some bags would be a nice player to have around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zchrz View Post
    Simmons is an absolute defensive monster freak of nature, there is no discussion of who is the best.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/is-an...e-season-ever/

    P Flo has some good range and makes some difficult plays, but he also still struggles some with consistency botching to many easy attempts. He has the potential to be a nice player if he improves on the easy stuff and hits the ball at an acceptable clip. A defensive whiz SS that can hit 230-240 with some pop and steal some bags would be a nice player to have around.
    Spot on, on both. Unfortunately, Florimon sometimes falls into that Latin player stereotype of free-swinging (leads as worst among all SS in K%- 25.8%) and lack of focus or sufficient interest in the job at hand. I just don't know if it's part of his nature to "take over" and be the leader through both word and deed. At best, he probably can be a good placeholder for now until one of the prospects fully emerges. Still, he has shown enough flashes at the plate to anticipate an overall improvement in WAR value in 2014.

    And Yunel Escobar is on the top of that tier of great fielding shortstops just below Simmons- Florimon is the next step down from Escobar, defensively. Florimon certainly has the potential to move to the Escobar level.

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    If the Twins are going to have a place holder up the middle, they should seek defense over offense. Poor defense and lack of range have repercussions on the development of the pitching staff. It leads to more men on base, longer innings and the earlier need for the bullpen. Florimon fits better as a place holder over Pressley who will be below average in CF.

    I also question whether there are many great defensive shortstops in the minors. I think they are as rare as great hitters. A great defensive shortstop will make it to the majors. A good defensive shortstop that can't hit needs some luck of opportunity. I am not sure if Florimon will be a great defensive shortstop of merely good with an opportunity.

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    According to Sabermetrics, Florimon is in the discussion for the #2 defensive SS in baseball. Simmons is nearly better than the next 4 guys combined.


    Gold Glove winners in BOLD. 2nd Tier Shortstops are in blue, only 2nd tier because Simmons creates his own tier, otherwise they're be 1st tier or '1st Division'.

    That said, for $500k, I like Florimon. I think he can improve too.

    Also, he likely would have finished higher in this if he had played more games, he only started 127 games. Tulowitzski also only played 126 games. Komza had 143 and Escobar had 158.

    Player Team SDI
    Andrelton Simmons ATL 29.3
    Pete Kozma STL 8.7
    Troy Tulowitzki COL 8.5
    Alcides Escobar KC 8.1
    Pedro Florimon MIN 7.6
    Yunel Escobar TB 6.2
    Elvis Andrus TEX 5.3
    Jean Segura MIL 3.7
    Zack Cozart CIN 3.6
    Jhonny Peralta DET 2.7
    Brandon Crawford SF 2.6
    J.J. Hardy BAL 1.6
    Alexei Ramirez CHW 0.4
    Stephen Drew BOS -0.8
    Everth Cabrera SD -2
    Ian Desmond WSH -2.5
    Adeiny Hechavarria MIA -2.8
    Starlin Castro CHC -5.2
    Jimmy Rollins PHI -6.1
    Asdrubal Cabrera CLE -7.6
    Erick Aybar LAA -7.9
    Jed Lowrie OAK -11.4

    For all results, please go to: http://sabr.org/latest/sabr-defensiv...x-2013-results
    Last edited by twinsfan34; 12-31-2013 at 04:36 PM.

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    And when Polanco is MLB ready how would he rank here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by twinsfan34 View Post
    According to Sabermetrics, Florimon is in the discussion for the #2 defensive SS in baseball. Simmons is nearly better than the next 4 guys combined.


    Gold Glove winners in BOLD. 2nd Tier Shortstops are in blue, only 2nd tier because Simmons creates his own tier, otherwise they're be 1st tier or '1st Division'.

    That said, for $500k, I like Florimon. I think he can improve too.

    Also, he likely would have finished higher in this if he had played more games, he only started 127 games. Tulowitzski also only played 126 games. Komza had 143 and Escobar had 158.

    Player Team SDI
    Andrelton Simmons ATL 29.3
    Pete Kozma STL 8.7
    Troy Tulowitzki COL 8.5
    Alcides Escobar KC 8.1
    Pedro Florimon MIN 7.6
    Yunel Escobar TB 6.2
    Elvis Andrus TEX 5.3
    Jean Segura MIL 3.7
    Zack Cozart CIN 3.6
    Jhonny Peralta DET 2.7
    Brandon Crawford SF 2.6
    J.J. Hardy BAL 1.6
    Alexei Ramirez CHW 0.4
    Stephen Drew BOS -0.8
    Everth Cabrera SD -2
    Ian Desmond WSH -2.5
    Adeiny Hechavarria MIA -2.8
    Starlin Castro CHC -5.2
    Jimmy Rollins PHI -6.1
    Asdrubal Cabrera CLE -7.6
    Erick Aybar LAA -7.9
    Jed Lowrie OAK -11.4

    For all results, please go to: http://sabr.org/latest/sabr-defensiv...x-2013-results
    I haven't looked up the criteria for the SDI metric. I think everyone is in agreement that none of these defensive measurments are perfect- especially for one-season measurments- but UZR is a pretty all-encompassing measurement of a defensive player's total competence in the field, and it confirms that Simmons is head and shoulders above all others, but for 2013, UZR only classifies 2 shortstops who are categorized at the next tier of "great", and those are:

    Andrelton Simmons 24.6
    Alciedes Escobar 10.9
    Yunel Escobar 10.7

    Next tier (ie, "Good" or Above average)
    Clint Barnes 8.9
    Pete Kozma 6.7
    Troy Tulowitzki 6.6
    Zach Cozart 6.4
    JJ Hardy 6.0
    Alexei Ramirez 5.5
    Steven Drew 5.3

    UZR of 0-5 "Average"
    Elvis Andrus 4.6
    Ian Desmond 4.4
    Pedro Florimon 4.3
    Brandon Crawford 3.8
    Jhonny Peralta 3.5
    Brendan Ryan 2.1

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    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy10 View Post
    And when Polanco is MLB ready how would he rank here?
    Probably between -1 and 3 if I were to give it a range. He just is more of a second baseman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy10 View Post
    And when Polanco is MLB ready how would he rank here?
    FWIW, Oliver projects him as a 1.0 WAR with a positive defensive rating as a 20 year old starting in place of Florimon on April 1 and jumping straight from Class A ball.... so at least one service is high on his defensive ability to this point.

    And in year 5 of their projections, when Polanco would only be 24, they project a .708 OPS hitter with a 2.3 WAR value with the same level of defense. According to Oliver, this year was the best we will ever see from Florimon (1.3 WAR) at age 27- the Oliver projection is Polanco would surpass that number in 2015 at age 21.
    Last edited by jokin; 12-31-2013 at 06:05 PM.

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    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    Polanco looked to be a little short in the arm strength department to be a really good major league shortstop. I saw him play two games at short and he showed decent range but a couple of routine plays seemed pretty close and he wasn't able to make a couple of plays from the shortstop hole. I see Polanco as the most likely replacement for Dozier.

    Florimon is a nice defensive SS. He struggled early but, man, it was really cold outside. I don't know if Pedro's replacement is in the system. I'm certainly not sold on Santana. I like that Florimon can occasionally get a hold of one, and if he can be patient and make more frequent contact and maybe beat out a few more bunts, he can be an asset.

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    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zchrz View Post
    Simmons is an absolute defensive monster freak of nature, there is no discussion of who is the best.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/is-an...e-season-ever/

    P Flo has some good range and makes some difficult plays, but he also still struggles some with consistency botching to many easy attempts. He has the potential to be a nice player if he improves on the easy stuff and hits the ball at an acceptable clip. A defensive whiz SS that can hit 230-240 with some pop and steal some bags would be a nice player to have around.
    Totally agree. Would love to have an all star or nearly so performer at SS who could also be a gold glove and silver slugger contender yearly. We all know how few of those guys are around. When push comes to shove, give me a defensive SS who can help all around offensively. Maybe it's just me, or the games I watched and listened to, but on many occasions he seemed to get a clutch hit, or a sacrifice, or take an extra base. And his defense was clearly the best we've seen/had in years.

    He may be done, he may be toast, but remember, only a rookie last year, and only 27 this year. With even a little overall improvement across the board statistically, not unreasonable for a second year player, combined with his defense, I'm very happy with him at SS and #9 in the order.

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    Senior Member Triple-A DocBauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringer bell View Post
    Polanco looked to be a little short in the arm strength department to be a really good major league shortstop. I saw him play two games at short and he showed decent range but a couple of routine plays seemed pretty close and he wasn't able to make a couple of plays from the shortstop hole. I see Polanco as the most likely replacement for Dozier.

    Florimon is a nice defensive SS. He struggled early but, man, it was really cold outside. I don't know if Pedro's replacement is in the system. I'm certainly not sold on Santana. I like that Florimon can occasionally get a hold of one, and if he can be patient and make more frequent contact and maybe beat out a few more bunts, he can be an asset.
    Like Polanco a lot. Wonder if time and play will stretch his arm out a bit more? Definitely would like to have a strong arm on your SS, but range, fielding, accuracy and quick release may be more important overall.

    I do think the Twins have a future stud/replacement in the system. And he has a great overall skill set. Just have to be a little patient. Have a feeling this could be his breakout season. His name is Niko Goodrum. Got a great feeling here.

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    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Florimon made some nice plays. Good arm, tandemed well with Dozier. But he posted a .600 OPS and I think an argument could be made he was lucky to do that. So I see him as the next iteration in the Hocking-Punto-Casilla line of switch hitting / no hitting middle infielders. I would like to some more punch from him with the bat, or see someone else take over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    I haven't looked up the criteria for the SDI metric. I think everyone is in agreement that none of these defensive measurments are perfect- especially for one-season measurments- but UZR is a pretty all-encompassing measurement of a defensive player's total competence in the field, and it confirms that Simmons is head and shoulders above all others, but for 2013, UZR only classifies 2 shortstops who are categorized at the next tier of "great", and those are:

    Andrelton Simmons 24.6
    Alciedes Escobar 10.9
    Yunel Escobar 10.7

    Next tier (ie, "Good" or Above average)
    Clint Barnes 8.9
    Pete Kozma 6.7
    Troy Tulowitzki 6.6
    Zach Cozart 6.4
    JJ Hardy 6.0
    Alexei Ramirez 5.5
    Steven Drew 5.3

    UZR of 0-5 "Average"
    Elvis Andrus 4.6
    Ian Desmond 4.4
    Pedro Florimon 4.3
    Brandon Crawford 3.8
    Jhonny Peralta 3.5
    Brendan Ryan 2.1
    Whoa stop. I'm confused. I've seen Peralta play some Brutal defense (I capitalized the B) and now I see a list with Florimon and Peralta at the same place -- school me up on this or send links!

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    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Spot on, on both. Unfortunately, Florimon sometimes falls into that Latin player stereotype of free-swinging (leads as worst among all SS in K%- 25.8%) and lack of focus or sufficient interest in the job at hand.

    Florimon certainly has the potential to move to the Escobar level.
    I wouldn't say it was lack of focus. Guys who get to more balls tend to be called sloppy because it seems like they make more mistakes. The reality is, they have the same proportion of errors to plays, they just have a lot more plays. Still, his was lack of experience showed. He struggled early with some routine plays (throwing to the wrong base, out of position to take a throw, etc.), but the more he played, the better he got with those. By the end of the season, he was a top-tier defender.

    Is he good enough, all things considered? I don't know. I would be more comfortable with him if the team had more offensive weapons around him. In this day and age, you can carry one guy who specializes in defense but has little to offer on offense. The Twins are looking at two (when Pinto catches) or three (when Suzuki catches) of those guys this year in one line-up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    I wouldn't say it was lack of focus. Guys who get to more balls tend to be called sloppy because it seems like they make more mistakes. The reality is, they have the same proportion of errors to plays, they just have a lot more plays. Still, his was lack of experience showed. He struggled early with some routine plays (throwing to the wrong base, out of position to take a throw, etc.), but the more he played, the better he got with those. By the end of the season, he was a top-tier defender.

    Is he good enough, all things considered? I don't know. I would be more comfortable with him if the team had more offensive weapons around him. In this day and age, you can carry one guy who specializes in defense but has little to offer on offense. The Twins are looking at two (when Pinto catches) or three (when Suzuki catches) of those guys this year in one line-up.
    I remember his looking absolutely miserable during those first several weeks when it was bitterly cold last year. Coincidentally, this was when most of defensive struggles came. Not saying those games don't count, but if you take them out of the equation I think it boosts his overall defensive performance quite a bit. And it was already quite high.

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