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Thread: Pedro Florimon

  1. #81
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    I look at it just the opposite...is it going to be easier (or cheaper) to upgrade the middle of the Twins order or the bottom?

    Replacing Florimon's OPS with something 100 points higher seems easier to me than finding that improvement elsewhere.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

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    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    I look at it just the opposite...is it going to be easier (or cheaper) to upgrade the middle of the Twins order or the bottom?

    Replacing Florimon's OPS with something 100 points higher seems easier to me than finding that improvement elsewhere.
    Not to mention that the Twins have plus prospects at nearly every position in the high minors... Except for Florimon's position.

    To me, it makes a lot more sense to gamble with free agency at a position where you have no minor league options for improvement and a pretty bad player on the MLB roster.

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  4. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major Leauge Ready View Post
    It is hard to argue that Florimon is part of a problem we have of several players posting an OPS of a #9 hitter. However another way to look at this problem is that Florimon's position is probably the hardest position to improve offensively. I don't think it makes sense to force a solutiuon right now. Not just because he is good defensively but because it is far easier to make offensive improvement within the other positions where we have players producing a low OPS. Last year we produced a very modest OPS at 1st base, DH, and the outfield positions which are typical positions with high OPS players. It makes more sense to prioritize offensive improvements elsewhere. This is not to say we should ignore SS but there is probably some wisdom in waiting until a better solution presents itself.
    This makes sense. Jason Parks of BP claims that six of the top ten prospects are shortstops. The Twins may end up being the beneficiaries of a little trickle-down economics if Goodrum, Santana, and Polanco don't pan out at the position in the next year or so.

  5. #84
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Not to mention that the Twins have plus prospects at nearly every position in the high minors... Except for Florimon's position.

    To me, it makes a lot more sense to gamble with free agency at a position where you have no minor league options for improvement and a pretty bad player on the MLB roster.
    OK. I would not be averse to signing Drew. I would be excited. I wouldn't even mind giving up the second round pick, because that will be offset by their return on the Florimon trade. But I have heard rumors of Boras playing the Kyle Lohse card. So I'm not optimistic that Ryan can get it done. All I'm saying is, if he doesn't get it done, I don't think it will hurt that bad.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  6. #85
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    OK. I would not be averse to signing Drew. I would be excited. I wouldn't even mind giving up the second round pick, because that will be offset by their return on the Florimon trade. But I have heard rumors of Boras playing the Kyle Lohse card. So I'm not optimistic that Ryan can get it done. All I'm saying is, if he doesn't get it done, I don't think it will hurt that bad.
    That's fair. I'm not really in love with Drew either so I won't be upset if they don't get him.

  7. #86
    Senior Member Triple-A Don't Feed the Greed Guy's Avatar
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    Hey all, I just want to say that I find the discussion regarding a shortstop's offensive and defensive value fascinating. The epitome of all field/no hit from the SS is Mark Belanger, one of my boyhood idols. There's a wonderful biography of Belanger on the SABR site: http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/bbcae277 Author, Frank Vaccaro

    A few great snippets, below from Mr. Vaccaro, who writes almost as well as Mr. Belanger flashed his glove. Mark "The Blade" Belanger died of complications with lung disease, on Oct. 6, 1998. He was 54 years old.

    "He never seemed to actually catch a ball; rather he redirected them into his throwing hand. Sports Illustrated once wrote: 'Belanger would glide effortlessly after a grounder and welcome it into loving arms; scooping the ball up with a single easy motion, and bringing it to his chest for a moment’s caress before making his throw.'"

    "In 18 years, he never dove for a ball, insisting that an all-out sprint was faster and maintained the mechanics of the play. And he was supremely confident: He never wore a protective cup."

    "Belanger went to spring training with the Orioles in 1963. Ron Hansen, whom the Orioles had just traded to the Chicago White Sox, approached the rookie with this advice: “Learn to rock forward as the pitcher delivers the ball instead of starting from zero.”3 Belanger took it to heart. Over the years he not only leaned forward but anticipated left or right based on batter tendencies and pitch location. Sometimes Belanger would break right and then correct himself and break left – all before the crack of the bat on the ball."

    "Belanger played for Earl Weaver at three levels (of minor league ball) along the way, and Weaver told him, 'You're my shortstop if you hit .0001.'"

    "(H)e hit just .208 in his first year as a starting player.The next spring bullpen coach Charlie Lau approached Belanger to offer batting tips. Lau kept track of every pitch Belanger saw that year, sending him up to bat with instructions to take and swing on specific counts, and encouraging him to expect certain pitches in certain spots based on previous batter-pitcher matchups. Belanger responded with his best batting season ever, won his first of eight Gold Gloves, and earned the nickname Blade for his silhouette as Baltimore rolled to a team record 109 wins. He hit for a .287 average with 50 RBIs."

    We could only hope for that sort of improvement from P-Flo... (cracks me up almost as much as Pujols...)

    "The tradeoff between Belanger’s lousy offense and great defense was usually one Weaver was willing to make, but he was not above trying to gain an edge. In September of 1975, Weaver often used Royle Stillman as the shortstop high in the starting lineup in road games, allowing rookie Stillman to bat in the first inning and Belanger to replace him in the bottom of the first. Stillman was an outfielder, and never played an inning of shortstop in his career, despite his six “starts” there in 1975. He hit 3-for-6 in these games.
    Belanger holds the American League career record for being pinch-hit for – 333 times. And if he wasn’t being pinch-hit for, he was sacrificing; his league-leading 23 sacrifices in 1975 were an Oriole record at least through 2009. In 1976, Belanger carried a .300 average into June and earned over a million votes in the All-Star balloting, making the team as a backup. When Peter Gammons wrote, 'Belanger could be the first 140 lb. weakling to win the MVP award,'18 Belanger sought him out at Fenway Park and confronted him: 'I’m 170 pounds, and I’m not a weakling.'"

    Sorry for the extended quotes. I hope they are accepted in good form, and attributed properly. Now, back to Florimon. Great discussion guys.

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  9. #87
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don't Feed the Greed Guy View Post
    "The tradeoff between Belanger’s lousy offense and great defense was usually one Weaver was willing to make, but he was not above trying to gain an edge. In September of 1975, Weaver often used Royle Stillman as the shortstop high in the starting lineup in road games, allowing rookie Stillman to bat in the first inning and Belanger to replace him in the bottom of the first. Stillman was an outfielder, and never played an inning of shortstop in his career, despite his six “starts” there in 1975. He hit 3-for-6 in these games.
    I wish Weaver'd kept on with this. This seems like a smart idea.

  10. #88
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    I wish Weaver'd kept on with this. This seems like a smart idea.
    That's the first I've ever heard of that trick. It's a fantastic idea. I'd love to see someone else give it a shot.

  11. #89
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure the Twins don't have the bats that the 70s Orioles had. Also, the Twins don't have a rotation with Seaver, Cuellar, et al. Also, those were the days when you would win most of the games in which you scored four runs or more, because offense in the 70s was pretty anemic. In this day and age, it is tough to beat the best teams with holes in your line-up. It can be done (the Twins of the '00s showed us how). But they defied the odds.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  12. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    I'm pretty sure the Twins don't have the bats that the 70s Orioles had. Also, the Twins don't have a rotation with Seaver, Cuellar, et al. Also, those were the days when you would win most of the games in which you scored four runs or more, because offense in the 70s was pretty anemic. In this day and age, it is tough to beat the best teams with holes in your line-up. It can be done (the Twins of the '00s showed us how). But they defied the odds.
    A couple of things, Seaver never pitched for the Orioles. The Orioles actually had a lot holes in their typical lineups. Blair, Dempsey and Belanger were all well below average offensive players for their positions. Having Palmer and 3 other 20 game winners as your 4 starting pitchers covered up a lot of hitting weaknesses. Also the middle of the Orioles lineup was among the league best.

    Part of the reason Weaver liked the 3 run home run was because they didn't have a lineup of high average guys. The Twins of that era had a much better overall lineup most years, they just never had comparable pitching or defense.

    I like the story about essentially using a pinch hitter to start the game for Belanger in road games. It kind of has to be a September thing though. You probably couldn't afford to use up a quality pinch hitter during the regular season with a 25 man roster. Also I sort of remember the Twins doing something like this as well. Maybe under Gene Mauch?

  13. #91
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    Florimon is either a starting shortstop or he doesn't have a major league job. He has no experience at other positions to play a utility role. The Twins can sign Drew and release Florimon.

    I don't see the parallel in trade value with Butera. Butera had options. Teams carry two or three catchers. Butera adds value towards developing pitchers in AAA. I can vision a midsummer trade if a team has a shortstop go down (like Peralta last year) and the Twins have enough confidence in Escobar or Santana to hand them the remainder of the seasons. That is two big ifs.

    I would keep Florimon as the starter and see how he develops. Plus defensive shortstops are not easy to develop. How many have the a Twins developed since Gagne?

  14. #92
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim H View Post
    A couple of things, Seaver never pitched for the Orioles.
    My bad. I have the bad habit of confusing Palmer with Seaver. I guess it's the All American look or something.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  15. #93
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post

    I would keep Florimon as the starter and see how he develops. Plus defensive shortstops are not easy to develop.
    Finding SS's who can play the position defensively isn't that tough. They don't grow on trees, but Florimon was a waiver wire pickup, for example.

    The tough part about finding SS's is finding one who can handle the defense and ​hit.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  16. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Finding SS's who can play the position defensively isn't that tough. They don't grow on trees, but Florimon was a waiver wire pickup, for example.

    The tough part about finding SS's is finding one who can handle the defense and ​hit.
    I think I agree. Finding shortstops that do both is difficult.

    Develop is the key word in my statement. He has the defense. Should the Twins invest plate appearances into his bat? I would give it one more year. Bats can develop towards adequate over time.

    At SS, it can't be done the other way. A player with a good bat and awful defense isn't going to become adequate defensively over time. They move to a less demanding position.

  17. #95
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Physics Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    That's fair. I'm not really in love with Drew either so I won't be upset if they don't get him.
    I guess this was my view on the whole thing. Drew is the only upgrade in FA and I don't like the contract he is looking for, his injury history nor the draft pick we would have to give up. I was very skeptical that Florimon was that far below his positional average. I truly felt there would probably be easier places, such as corner OF or IF, where we could improve. So I did some digging:

    League Average OPS by Position:
    C - .708 (Pinto had .963 in MLB last year and .882 in AA/AAA)
    1B - .777 (Mauer had .880 last year)
    2B - .709 (Dozier .726, hopefully can stay above .700)
    SS - .682 (Floimon .611 )
    3B - .742 (Plouffe .701, .756 in 2012)
    LF - .724 (Willingham .709, career .830)
    CF - .738 (Hicks .598, Pressley .699)
    RF - .741 (Arcia .734)
    DH - .728 (Parmelee .663)

    SS, CF and DH are the three spots where we are weak. 1B and LF (assuming bounce-back by Willingham) are above average. C and RF could be above average, 2B is fine and 3B is a big question mark until Sano is up. There is reason to hope that CF can be better this year and there is no reason to do anything with Buxton on the way. SS and DH seem to be the areas where the greatest improvement could be made. If Sano is up soon, we could platoon Plouffe and Parmelee (or others?) at DH and maybe be league average. I think there is reason to believe we could be near or above league average at most positions. This clearly depends on some young players continuing to improve.

    Drew is the only upgrade I can see at SS and as I explained earlier, I don't think they should sign him. They could improve their lineup (and defense) by finding a LF who can hit .750 OPS and move Willingham to DH. I'm not sure such a guy exists in FA. After looking at FA, I think the Twins could sign Wilson Betemit. He is a switch-hitter with much stronger numbers against RHP. He would be a natural platoon with Plouffe and would make the bench stronger. He would also give us another LH bat on the bench in case Parmelee can't hack it.

    I also looked up league average OPS by batting order. How would this work for the Twins?
    1st - .716 (Dozier .726 last year)
    2nd - .728 (Mauer .880)
    3rd - .774 (Willingham .709 last year, .830 career)
    4th - .783 (Arcia .734)
    5th - .747 (Betemit .819 career vs RHP, Plouffe .842 career vs LHP)
    6th - .737 (Pinto .963 in SSS last year)
    7th - .706 (Parmelee .663 or other options at DH)
    8th - .681 (Pressley .699 l.y. or Hicks??)
    9th - .633 (Florimon .611 last year)

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  19. #96
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    Physics Guy, outstanding analysis on where Twins should look for upgrades in their lineup and I believe it should not be addressed until the crop of "kids" is ready and we see how they perform, some will be fine, others not. When the team determines that then the time to sign free agents is nigh. In addition a good fielding shortstop should be the priority at that position, the hitting can come from other spots in the lineup.

  20. #97
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Betemit would be a good pickup too. I forgot about him.

    edit: wait... http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=25859081
    Last edited by Willihammer; 01-04-2014 at 01:32 PM.

  21. #98
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Physics Guy View Post
    I guess this was my view on the whole thing. Drew is the only upgrade in FA and I don't like the contract he is looking for, his injury history nor the draft pick we would have to give up. I was very skeptical that Florimon was that far below his positional average. I truly felt there would probably be easier places, such as corner OF or IF, where we could improve. So I did some digging:

    League Average OPS by Position:
    C - .708 (Pinto had .963 in MLB last year and .882 in AA/AAA)
    1B - .777 (Mauer had .880 last year)
    2B - .709 (Dozier .726, hopefully can stay above .700)
    SS - .682 (Floimon .611 )
    3B - .742 (Plouffe .701, .756 in 2012)
    LF - .724 (Willingham .709, career .830)
    CF - .738 (Hicks .598, Pressley .699)
    RF - .741 (Arcia .734)
    DH - .728 (Parmelee .663)

    SS, CF and DH are the three spots where we are weak. 1B and LF (assuming bounce-back by Willingham) are above average. C and RF could be above average, 2B is fine and 3B is a big question mark until Sano is up. There is reason to hope that CF can be better this year and there is no reason to do anything with Buxton on the way. SS and DH seem to be the areas where the greatest improvement could be made. If Sano is up soon, we could platoon Plouffe and Parmelee (or others?) at DH and maybe be league average. I think there is reason to believe we could be near or above league average at most positions. This clearly depends on some young players continuing to improve.

    Drew is the only upgrade I can see at SS and as I explained earlier, I don't think they should sign him. They could improve their lineup (and defense) by finding a LF who can hit .750 OPS and move Willingham to DH. I'm not sure such a guy exists in FA. After looking at FA, I think the Twins could sign Wilson Betemit. He is a switch-hitter with much stronger numbers against RHP. He would be a natural platoon with Plouffe and would make the bench stronger. He would also give us another LH bat on the bench in case Parmelee can't hack it.

    I also looked up league average OPS by batting order. How would this work for the Twins?
    1st - .716 (Dozier .726 last year)
    2nd - .728 (Mauer .880)
    3rd - .774 (Willingham .709 last year, .830 career)
    4th - .783 (Arcia .734)
    5th - .747 (Betemit .819 career vs RHP, Plouffe .842 career vs LHP)
    6th - .737 (Pinto .963 in SSS last year)
    7th - .706 (Parmelee .663 or other options at DH)
    8th - .681 (Pressley .699 l.y. or Hicks??)
    9th - .633 (Florimon .611 last year)
    The Twins need to score around 90 more runs in 2014 just to get around middle of the pack in the AL. I don't think the above lineup has much chance at accomplishing that.

    Given that even with the starting pitching additions, they are unlikely to be any better than mediocre at preventing runs, I think they need to aim higher than that offensively. If they want to be in the top third, they need to add more like 150 runs. You cannot litter your lineup with .600 and .700 OPS hitters and expect to be a good offense. At some point, hopefully you start to get some .800 and .900 OPS hitters from your minor leagues, but that is likely not 2014, maybe not 2015, and no matter when, will not be coming from any shortstop in the Twins organization.

    They've added some pitching, it's time to add some runs.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  22. #99
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Physics Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    The Twins need to score around 90 more runs in 2014 just to get around middle of the pack in the AL. I don't think the above lineup has much chance at accomplishing that.

    Given that even with the starting pitching additions, they are unlikely to be any better than mediocre at preventing runs, I think they need to aim higher than that offensively. If they want to be in the top third, they need to add more like 150 runs. You cannot litter your lineup with .600 and .700 OPS hitters and expect to be a good offense. At some point, hopefully you start to get some .800 and .900 OPS hitters from your minor leagues, but that is likely not 2014, maybe not 2015, and no matter when, will not be coming from any shortstop in the Twins organization.

    They've added some pitching, it's time to add some runs.
    I think we will have to agree to disagree. I think with a rebound by Willingham, more PA by Mauer and improvement from the young guys I like our chances of reaching league average or better. There is also the chance Sano comes up and helps significantly. I'd be curious who you think we should add. Drew is the only guy available in FA that I see helping and I don't like the cost.

    Three of the top eight scoring teams (those above league average) have more than two regular batters with .800 OPS or better (Bos, Det and Tor). I think the Twins have potentially three in Mauer, Willingham and Arcia. The more I think about it, the more I want them to sign Betemit. If somehow you convince Gardy to platoon him with Plouffe you add another .800 OPS guy at 3B. Outside of that, I'm content to go with what we have unless Ryan can find a trade for a LF so that we can move Hammer to DH.

  23. #100
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim H View Post
    A couple of things, Seaver never pitched for the Orioles. The Orioles actually had a lot holes in their typical lineups. Blair, Dempsey and Belanger were all well below average offensive players for their positions. Having Palmer and 3 other 20 game winners as your 4 starting pitchers covered up a lot of hitting weaknesses. Also the middle of the Orioles lineup was among the league best.

    Part of the reason Weaver liked the 3 run home run was because they didn't have a lineup of high average guys. The Twins of that era had a much better overall lineup most years, they just never had comparable pitching or defense.

    I like the story about essentially using a pinch hitter to start the game for Belanger in road games. It kind of has to be a September thing though. You probably couldn't afford to use up a quality pinch hitter during the regular season with a 25 man roster. Also I sort of remember the Twins doing something like this as well. Maybe under Gene Mauch?
    Mauch had Tony Oliva, who could still hit, but couldn't run at all because of a terrible knee injury, and would have Tony lead off the games on the road as the second baseman. If Tony got on, the second baseman (Bobby Randall?) would pinch-run. If not, the second baseman would replace Tony in the field.

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