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Thread: Pedro Florimon

  1. #141
    Super Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Yes you did. Let me help you out on solving your mystery. You casually brushed aside the most major FA SP upgrade since Jack Morris in signing Garza as merely, "adding a starting pitcher."
    Moderator's note: this bickering has gone on long enough. The thread was about Florimon's defense and the digression, if it has not run its course, needs to go to PM as TWO already suggested.

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  3. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I find it fascintating people want to trade for players, but are afraid to give up a 2nd round pick for a proven player.
    The question then is what do you believe you can get for that second round pick in the draft. Is signing the player worth the player you could draft. Is a few years for one player worth 6 years of another? If it is, you sign the player. Yes a player with a track record is a sure thing. I would like to think when you draft a high round player you do not think maybe this will work out. You want enough confidence to know it will work.

  4. #143
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    The question then is what do you believe you can get for that second round pick in the draft. Is signing the player worth the player you could draft. Is a few years for one player worth 6 years of another? If it is, you sign the player. Yes a player with a track record is a sure thing. I would like to think when you draft a high round player you do not think maybe this will work out. You want enough confidence to know it will work.
    If a team is close to contending then go with the sure thing if that fills a need. This team is still minimum a few years away in my opinion, if we're having this conversation in 2016 assuming our expected prospects work out then trading a 2nd round pick for a proven asset is an easy decision.

    No matter how confident a team is with a second round draft pick, there is just no such thing as a sure thing.

  5. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    The question then is what do you believe you can get for that second round pick in the draft. Is signing the player worth the player you could draft. Is a few years for one player worth 6 years of another? If it is, you sign the player. Yes a player with a track record is a sure thing. I would like to think when you draft a high round player you do not think maybe this will work out. You want enough confidence to know it will work.
    By the time you get to pick 40+ there is about a 10-20% chance that the player ever becomes a decent MLB starter. A team can have confidence but those are the facts.

  6. #145
    I believe most people on here are really underestimating pedro florimon. Baseball reference had him as a 2.1 WAR last year, third best on the team. It is also difficult to find a 10/10 SS, which Pedro is. With a little bit of improvement at the plate to say .250 BA, with his defense, you are talking about a top 10 SS in the game. Even if he doesn't make a big jump at the plate the Twins can still win with him at SS just putting up a 2 WAR. I would like them to spend their time addressing other issues, like the fact Alex Presley should never start in Center Field for a real winning baseball team, or playing all your extra catchers and first baseman in right field with a bad fielding LF and CF then wondering why fly ball pitchers are bad. Pedro is not the problem and Bartlett is not an answer, he hasn't been good in about 5 years.

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  8. #146
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    I like how people keep expecting a little improvement at the plate and how he could hit .250. On the flipside with any regression he has a <.600 OPS. He's a tolerable placeholder but there is no way that he is part of the long term plans.

  9. #147
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    On the flipside with any regression he has a <.600 OPS.
    Like for example if he doesn't run into 9 HRs?

    Were I a betting man...and I am...I'm taking the under on that in 2014.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  10. #148
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Like for example if he doesn't run into 9 HRs?

    Were I a betting man...and I am...I'm taking the under on that in 2014.
    Which is what he did over the last 4 months of the season, a .560-ish OPS.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ballÖ and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  11. #149
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    I like how people keep expecting a little improvement at the plate and how he could hit .250. On the flipside with any regression he has a <.600 OPS. He's a tolerable placeholder but there is no way that he is part of the long term plans.
    Hey, all it could take is for Pedro to log his 3507th professional plate appearance to figure it out.

    Because that's logical.

  12. #150
    Senior Member Triple-A Don't Feed the Greed Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Hey, all it could take is for Pedro to log his 3507th professional plate appearance to figure it out.

    Because that's logical.
    David Ortiz logged 3895 professional plate appearances (1477 in the majors) when the Twins made the logical choice, and released him. He was 27 years old.

    The proving line is typically 4000 professional plate appearances--2000 in the majors, before a professional hitter is properly seasoned. With all due respect, I don't think this is the year to give up on Florimon, and his 606 MLB PA's.

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    Joe A. Preusser (01-12-2014)

  14. #151
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    Florimon will hardly equal Ortiz's numbers even if they threw underhand to him for the rest of his MLB at bats.

  15. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don't Feed the Greed Guy View Post
    David Ortiz logged 3895 professional plate appearances (1477 in the majors) when the Twins made the logical choice, and released him. He was 27 years old.

    The proving line is typically 4000 professional plate appearances--2000 in the majors, before a professional hitter is properly seasoned. With all due respect, I don't think this is the year to give up on Florimon, and his 606 MLB PA's.
    Using this argument Plouffe gets another 1.5 years and Parmelee 3 more years.

    There should be very little debate that Florimon is a poor hitter and not an option that a teams wants going forward. He's an acceptable stop gap because of his defense but it's a position that the Twins should definitely try to upgrade. I'm not very optimistic that Santana is that upgrade so it will likely have to come from outside the org.

  16. #153
    Senior Member Triple-A Don't Feed the Greed Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldguy10 View Post
    Florimon will hardly equal Ortiz's numbers even if they threw underhand to him for the rest of his MLB at bats.
    And Ortiz' defense will never match Florimon's even if he was fielding in a wiffle ball league.

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  18. #154
    Senior Member Triple-A Don't Feed the Greed Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    Using this argument Plouffe gets another 1.5 years and Parmelee 3 more years.

    There should be very little debate that Florimon is a poor hitter and not an option that a teams wants going forward.
    Plouffe and Parms can't match Florimon's defense. I find your comment "there should be very little debate..." quite ironic. I find this to be a good, engaging debate. It's a worthwhile conversation. This thread reveals a pretty nuanced conversation regarding the pro's and con's of Florimon's defensive upside, versus his offensive liabilities. I think there's still room for debate.

  19. #155
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    In regard to giving up the value of a 2nd round pick, I don't know the exact percentages of a 2nd round pick reaching the majors and becoming at least a solid, contributing ball player regardless of position. Considering the very unsure and volatile nature of the draft in general, it certainly can't be a high percentage. But simple logic would dictate it is a higher percentage/occurrence than a 3rd round pick, or a 4th or 5th, etc.

    So I believe the debate has to be the willingness to give up that possibility of potential for a so-called "proven commodity". And in some cases, especially when a team is there, or almost there, the sacrifice is probably a good idea. Conversely, doing this fairly often further deprives a team of actually finding a good young player. Further, a prospect may not even help your team directly, but may be traded directly or packaged to make another move to acquire a helpful player.

    Losing a second round pick by itself may not have a lasting affect on a team. (Though there is always the risk of missing out on someone good) But there is also the culmative affect of repeatedly doing so, not to mention the affor mentioned trade possibilities. The ability to acquire talent, depth of talent, is a valuable resource in any sport.

    Certainly not opposed to the Twins improving at SS, but there is the possibility that Floriman improves at least some offensively. Or he may be part of a platoon with Escobar. Or Escobar may yet win the spot outright. And we don't know yet how good Santana may turn out. (Or Goodrum a couple years away) I don't resist change, just don't want t knee jerk a change on a re-building team that does, at least in the short term, have some options to consider. At least in the short term.

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  21. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don't Feed the Greed Guy View Post
    Plouffe and Parms can't match Florimon's defense. I find your comment "there should be very little debate..." quite ironic. I find this to be a good, engaging debate. It's a worthwhile conversation. This thread reveals a pretty nuanced conversation regarding the pro's and con's of Florimon's defensive upside, versus his offensive liabilities. I think there's still room for debate.
    Of course they can't match his defense. if they hit like Florimon (minor and majors) they would have been out of baseball years ago.

    Everybody knows that Florimon plays good defense. The problem is that no amount of defense overcomes a .600 OPS. And I think there is a good chance that he is <.600 OPS this year. Yes, MLB SS's suck at hitting but good teams do not consider that type of player a long term piece. He's a placeholder.

  22. #157
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don't Feed the Greed Guy View Post
    David Ortiz logged 3895 professional plate appearances (1477 in the majors) when the Twins made the logical choice, and released him. He was 27 years old.

    The proving line is typically 4000 professional plate appearances--2000 in the majors, before a professional hitter is properly seasoned. With all due respect, I don't think this is the year to give up on Florimon, and his 606 MLB PA's.
    David Ortiz OPSd over .900 at every level in the minors except rookie ball.

    He OPSd .799 or better every year with the Twins except his age 23 season, where he got 25 PAs.

    I think he was "properly seasoned" before the Twins made one of the the worst "logical" choices in the history of the franchise.

    Florimon, on the other hand, has had only one level ABOVE rookie ball where he managed to break the .700 level. He is 27 years old.

    With all due respect, Florimon is never going to hit.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  23. #158
    Senior Member Triple-A Don't Feed the Greed Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocBauer View Post
    In regard to giving up the value of a 2nd round pick, I don't know the exact percentages of a 2nd round pick reaching the majors and becoming at least a solid, contributing ball player regardless of position. Considering the very unsure and volatile nature of the draft in general, it certainly can't be a high percentage..
    Very true.

    So what is the Twin's #2 selection worth? I took a look at all the players picked #5 in the second round, over the past 25 years or so, dating back to the time when a certain MLB franchise won its first World Series. Yes, a very unscientific study that doesn't factor in compensation rounds, upcoming trades, and other variables that are still pending...

    The most recent 2nd round #5 draftee to make "The Show" is Anthony Gose (2008), followed by Josh Fields (2007), Chris Tillman (2006), Yovanni Gallardo (2004), Shane Costa (2003), Darrell Risner (2002), Rene Rivera (2001), and Rob Bowen (1999).

    Other notables?

    Milton Bradley (1996)
    Brian Hunter (1989)


    And, going back a little further....


    George Brett (1971)
    Bill Buckner (1968)

  24. #159
    Senior Member Triple-A Don't Feed the Greed Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    The problem is that no amount of defense overcomes a .600 OPS.
    Mark Belanger: .580 OPS, career.
    Ozzie Smith: .666 OPS for his career (sub .500 for his first four seasons)
    Greg Gagne: Sub .500 over his first 350 plate appearances, and then he started raising his slugging percentage.


    Again, there are other examples. It's just that I LOVED seeing these guys bring their talents to the game. They made their teams better.

    By the way, I ran into a guy from Massachusetts while on vacation last week. He played against Gagne during high school. He remembered Gagne as a pretty average ballplayer, who just kept working on his game. It was a fascinating conversation, especially given the backdrop of this thread. How cool, huh? It's another testimony to hard work.

    Some scout in the Yankees organization found promise in this hard-working kid from Fall River, MA. Three years later he's traded to the Twins for Roy Smalley (yes, and we picked up Ron Davis too... Yikes!). We know what happened with Davis, but the gem of the deal was a shortstop who kept working on his game and became a fixture in the Twins lineup for seven years--their starting shortstop for fourteen very meaningful postseason games.

    Thanks for the conversation, guys. I hope to pick it up again during the football games tomorrow afternoon.

  25. #160
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    Im sorry, Florimon is pretty good defensively but he is not in Simmons or Iglesias level. He has a good arm, very good range but misses to many gimme's. The consistency just isnt there to be at their elite level.

    its probably
    1) Simmons
    2) Simmons
    3) Simmons
    4) Simmons
    5) Simmons
    6) Simmons
    7) Simmons
    8) Iglesias
    9) Iglesias
    10) Igleasias
    .
    .
    .
    .
    15) Florimon

    Simmons is that good.

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