11-03-2012, 10:40 PM #61
I really don't believe Clinton was a moderate at all. Not in his personal beliefs, anyway. He was, however, one of the last people in Washington - in the White House or the Capitol Building - willing to negotiate his own personal beliefs in order to make progress he felt was for the good of all. His willingness to reach across the aisle in his first couple of years when his own party was setting up an us-against-them mentality was why the "Contract With America" Republicans were so willing to work with him. A great example is the Tom Daschle of Clinton's era vs. the Tom Daschle that was forced to exist in Bush's presidency. Daschle is a moderate Democrat at his core beliefs, but he was forced to be the "anti" voice in public because his party had chosen to return to partisan politics after the Bush/Gore debacle of an election.
Do welfare and entitlement programs need an overhaul? Absolutely! The issue is that no one comes to the middle and says "what is working and what isn't". The right comes in saying, "Scrap the whole thing!" The left comes in saying, "There are too many people who would be hurt if we completely lost this help!" Neither side is willing to come in and make sacrifices. Heck, we're in the midst of a recession. I've not had a raise since I started this job 4 years ago. In that time, Congress has increased their pay nearly 150% once you include in travel costs and room and board. That's out of touch with America, both sides of the aisle.
I look at South Dakota as a great example. Kristi Noem may be the dumbest congressperson ever sent to Washington, and her entire platform is anti-Obama and anti-Pelosi, but it rallies a state right now that's sick of the crap going on in DC. Problem is, she's contributing as much as she's helping, and she can't really be attacked on her incredible absentee record and lack of education because she left school to be a mom and she's used her kids as an excuse to leave DC instead of attend committee meetings she should be a part of. No one wants to attack a mom for spending time with her kids, but this is exactly why we have the issue we do. Someone who obviously isn't willing to put in the time to do the job required is kept in office and getting pay raises while her constituents pay for higher priced items with stagnant and even lower wages (SD has an incredibly low unemployment rate, so it's hard to argue the "out of work" angle). This kind of crap representation is rampant in DC right now, and it's why nothing will happen with either presidential candidate to really change our current issues in this country.The Biggest Braves Fan on Twins Daily!
11-03-2012, 10:53 PM #62
11-03-2012, 10:55 PM #63
He is also left of center when it comes to his tax plan. He wants to keep tax rates for those earning under 250k as is while raising for those making more while not offering much in reform.
He is on the left in Social Security as his plan is pretty much to maintain the status quo. He wants additional government involvement in health care.
He is on the left on social issues such as gay marriage, abortion, access to contraceptives, funding for stem cell research and others. I agree with him here for the most part, even if he is hesitant to do more reasonable actions when it comes to drugs.
He is left of center in using government money to invest in alternative energy companies.
I could go on. He is not some socialist but he is a pretty run of the mill liberal technocrat. Because of this I will generally side with him on social issues and be less impressed with his economic policies. I struggle some with his foreign policy, but the alternative would be much worse.Papers...business papers.
11-03-2012, 11:48 PM #64
Are even conservatives really against tax hikes for those making more than 250k? Government money is invested in oil and coal, why not wind? (**** ethanol.) In any case, the prominence of far right ideology has pulled the center to the right. That gay marriage, funding wind, and taxing the super wealthy are even up for debate demonstrates the center-right core of American politics.
People confuse balance with objectivity; there's a lot of rhetoric from the right that's totally illegitimate--that the legitimate argument gets colored as left is super problematic.
11-03-2012, 11:57 PM #65
You believe what you are isn't as far left as it is and it skews your opinion and then you're preaching to all of us about how blind we are about where things stand. It's smug, annoying, and (sadly) predictable. It's yet another demonstration of why I just can't stand liberalism no matter how many points I might agree with it on. At least many a-hole conservatives can blame an all-powerful god for making them idiots, most liberals have only their own smug, head-up-their-butt naivety to blame. Excellent demo for us though, yeesh.
Last edited by TheLeviathan; 11-04-2012 at 12:00 AM.
11-04-2012, 12:13 AM #66
11-04-2012, 12:18 AM #67
For my part, I'm not seeing a convincing argument that Obama isn't a moderate Democrat, if left-of-center classifies as liberal so be it.
Honestly, Levi, you move the goal posts and than declare victory. You froth at the opportunity to call me (or anyone) a naive liberal. It's crap-logic that labels ethical integrity as naivete. Maybe your hyperbolic defensive nature is fooling some people, but--dear god--it can't be fooling everybody. It's in moments like these that an unreasonable resentment of liberalism shines through. Maybe it doesn't come from some right wing ethic, but it certainly is hellish.
11-04-2012, 12:19 AM #68
11-04-2012, 12:36 AM #69
welfare entitlements? how about stopping corp. welfare first?
mitt romney deducted 77,000 dollars for the care of his wifes horse...
thats more then most familys earn, haliburtons 3 times billion dollar grants,
for every dollar spent on poor welfare 2 dollars are spent on corp. welfare
as for social security , thats easy to fix, put congress , the senate and the presidents pensions into it and sit back and watch how fast they repay what they have stolen from it....
the 1%ers keep this country argueing left and right ,while they rob us blind,time for the working class to stop the theft of our country....there more of us then there is of them.....
11-04-2012, 01:08 AM #70
11-04-2012, 08:20 AM #71
You and other liberals don't want resentment? Stop doing exactly that!!!! I've met a handful of liberals I could actually say "alright, here's the problem, what do we do" without it turning into a smug ****fest about stupid conservatives rather than anything pragmatic. It easily builds resentment.
11-04-2012, 09:33 AM #72
I believe Obama is a "moderate" because he cannot be anything else right now. He can barely get anything done with a GOP house as a moderate... Anything more than that and he'd accomplish absolutely nothing (and there is plenty of strife within the Democratic ranks, which will not follow an extreme left Obama).
As I've mentioned before, I believe the GOP is responsible for most of the partisanship within Congress... But Democrats are guilty of it as well. Obama may look moderate right now but I believe that's because it is forced upon him, not because he's actually a centrist.
11-04-2012, 01:12 PM #73
11-04-2012, 01:24 PM #74
11-07-2012, 03:12 PM #75