Thread: JO Berrios

Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan

In recent memory, there haven't been any. In the small market days, they definitely played the arb/super2 game... Guys like Neshek, Morneau, and Bartlett spent more time in the minors than one would have liked.... but that was quite some time ago.

the arb/super 2 game is a different discussion. I'm specifically talking about the ridiculous arguments that 'if Trout/Harper played for the Twins they would only be in A ball right now'. There seems to be this myth that the Twins don't promote fast enough thru the rk/A/AA levels. If some had their way any decent prospect would be promoted after a month of decent production similar to what the Mets did with so many prospects. Aside from a couple of college pitchers like Slowey/Garza/Gibson there have not been any prospects (that I can think of) that deserved to be fast tracked.

Originally Posted by kab21

Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan

In recent memory, there haven't been any. In the small market days, they definitely played the arb/super2 game... Guys like Neshek, Morneau, and Bartlett spent more time in the minors than one would have liked.... but that was quite some time ago.

the arb/super 2 game is a different discussion. I'm specifically talking about the ridiculous arguments that 'if Trout/Harper played for the Twins they would only be in A ball right now'. There seems to be this myth that the Twins don't promote fast enough thru the rk/A/AA levels. If some had their way any decent prospect would be promoted after a month of decent production similar to what the Mets did with so many prospects. Aside from a couple of college pitchers like Slowey/Garza/Gibson there have not been any prospects (that I can think of) that deserved to be fast tracked.

On that I agree with you.

We'll see with Sano and Rosario, I guess, and maybe Berrios - not sure who else should move quickly right now (well, maybe some pitchers that we KNOW will be relievers long term). There was a study (on the internet, by BP or someone) about 2 years ago that showed the Twins promoted players slower than most every other team, but I can't recall if the conclusion was that they were slower as a strategy, or that the players weren't worthy.

In recent memory, there haven't been any. In the small market days, they definitely played the arb/super2 game... Guys like Neshek, Morneau, and Bartlett spent more time in the minors than one would have liked.... but that was quite some time ago.[/QUOTE]
??? Neshek appears to have been fast tracked. For Morneau and Bartlett, September call up from AA where they did not perform well, then they did well after midseason call ups after 1/2 season in AAA. Would you like to try again?

Originally Posted by mike wants wins

We'll see with Sano and Rosario, I guess, and maybe Berrios - not sure who else should move quickly right now (well, maybe some pitchers that we KNOW will be relievers long term). There was a study (on the internet, by BP or someone) about 2 years ago that showed the Twins promoted players slower than most every other team, but I can't recall if the conclusion was that they were slower as a strategy, or that the players weren't worthy.

Sano and Rosario are definitely two guys that could potentially be fast tracked but even though they are having good seasons they are not dominating their low A this year. I don't have any problem with Sano staying in Beloit all season despite 26 HR's and a .900 OPS.

One could actually argue that Arcia has been fastracked. He's 21 with an expectation that he'll be in the majors by July next season. We're looking at 500ish AB's in A ball and 500ish AB's in AA/AAA.

Originally Posted by kab21

Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan

In recent memory, there haven't been any. In the small market days, they definitely played the arb/super2 game... Guys like Neshek, Morneau, and Bartlett spent more time in the minors than one would have liked.... but that was quite some time ago.

the arb/super 2 game is a different discussion. I'm specifically talking about the ridiculous arguments that 'if Trout/Harper played for the Twins they would only be in A ball right now'. There seems to be this myth that the Twins don't promote fast enough thru the rk/A/AA levels. If some had their way any decent prospect would be promoted after a month of decent production similar to what the Mets did with so many prospects. Aside from a couple of college pitchers like Slowey/Garza/Gibson there have not been any prospects (that I can think of) that deserved to be fast tracked.

I definitely agree with this. A lot of people are very critical of the Twins promotion methods, but as you said we just haven't had the type of prospects that you aggressively promote. Arcia has been promoted fairly aggressively but there's a reason for that.

Originally Posted by old nurse

??? Neshek appears to have been fast tracked. For Morneau and Bartlett, September call up from AA where they did not perform well, then they did well after midseason call ups after 1/2 season in AAA. Would you like to try again?

Yes apparently the free Neshek slogans that people adopted were because Neshek was being fast tracked. The Twins were in desparate need of pen help while he was absolutely dominating AAA hitters and they took their time calling him up. Morneau and Bartlett didn't perform well in their September callups and went back to AAA where they dominated. In Bartletts case, he spent 3 years there posting an OPS of .887, .864, and .779 while playing above average defense at short. The Twins, instead of giving him an opportunity, signed Juan Castro and wondered why they couldn't get the offense going. At the same time Morneau spent a half year in AAA following his demotion where he only had an OPS of .992 while Dougie M blocked him with his .700 OPS. All of these players could have been up sooner...

that said, if you actually bothered to read my posts, you'd have realized I was largely agreeing with the idea that the Twins are not holding guys back. I specifically mentioned these guys in terms of super 2 status, which is exactly why Neshek and Morneau were delayed (though I suspect but cannot prove there may have been other issues with Bartlett)...

What is the point of promoting fast? I can see the downside.

Downside: Have to pay a player when he gets to Majors faster and is arbitration eligible faster.

Originally Posted by Twins Twerp

What is the point of promoting fast? I can see the downside.

Downside: Have to pay a player when he gets to Majors faster and is arbitration eligible faster.

Development. In lower stake games, it's easier to work on your game without worrying about results. Players like Dozier and Hendricks might be examples of players promoted too quickly...

Originally Posted by mike wants wins

We'll see with Sano and Rosario, I guess, and maybe Berrios - not sure who else should move quickly right now (well, maybe some pitchers that we KNOW will be relievers long term). There was a study (on the internet, by BP or someone) about 2 years ago that showed the Twins promoted players slower than most every other team, but I can't recall if the conclusion was that they were slower as a strategy, or that the players weren't worthy.

The other team that is often thought of as being slow to promote is the Rays. And they actually have stud prospects worthy of quicker promotions. I think overall that is pretty good company for the Twins to keep.

Overall I think the conservative approach is generally smarter for development, allows for steady progress and the ability to have sustained success at every level. This is especially true the last couple of years when the Twins have been terrible. There is little gained from a player being overmatched in the bigs.

I still didn't see a Berrios adopt a prospect so, in today's BA hot sheet: "The Scoop: Few players from the 2012 draft have dominated in their pro debuts quite like Berrios. A supplemental first-round pick (32nd overall) out of Puerto Rico in June, Berrios has a 1.17 ERA and a sterling 49-4 K-BB mark across 30 2/3 innings between the Rookie-level Gulf Coast League and the Appy League. While Berrios is filling up the zone with strikes, he's also doing it with power, as he's shown a fastball in the low- to mid-90s that has reached as high as 98 mph. It's very early, but the Twins may have gotten a steal here."

I've heard that Berrios's chang-up is average. But watch this video about 32 seconds in he throws what appears to be a change up. Tons of movement on that pitch.

Originally Posted by righty8383

I've heard that Berrios's chang-up is average. But watch this video about 32 seconds in he throws what appears to be a change up. Tons of movement on that pitch.

Nasty